Honestly, why does George R.R. Martin hate his readers so?

Actually you are right as Melissandre killed him and he would take the place of Chett who I now recall was not killed. I too need a reread
 
You know, as much as I love to hate on Bran, I have to admit that the first shocking thing to happen in the books was when he was thrown off the tower by Jaime. I mean, it's fairly obvious from basically the first chapter in the series that Bran is going to play a huge role. He's a central character and as such we expect nothing *really bad* happen to him. But then he loses the use of his legs. I've read series where a main character has a tough time but never one where that character is crippled so severely early on.

I guess my point is that people like to point to Eddard being killed as the first sign that GRRM doesn't mind hurting his main characters but Bran is really the first example. I'd say that Sansa's wolf, Lady, being beheaded is the second major event. Even though the wolves aren't exactly main characters, being attached to the main characters would give them their invincibility in most other series. Not so in GRRM's world!
 
I think Bran had to be severley disabled to learn to use his other gifts - by rights he should be dead, but he isn't - I reckon the old gods haves something in store for him and his disability allows him to discover what it is

Trust me any significant point has consequences later
 
Tansy said:
I think Bran had to be severley disabled to learn to use his other gifts - by rights he should be dead, but he isn't - I reckon the old gods haves something in store for him and his disability allows him to discover what it is

Trust me any significant point has consequences later
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Yeah, I know, but this thread is about how GRRM treats his main characters and how you don't see that in too many other series. Most authors don't kill or maim their main characters. In fact, you can pretty much expect main characters to invincible and for them to get always get out of seemingly impossible situations.

In another series there might have been a huge pile of hay conveniently below that tower to break Bran's fall so that he could walk away with a few minor scratches rather two useless legs. Or maybe Bran would suddenly tap into his latent magical powers while he's falling and instinctively cast a levitation spell that would save him. Then Maester Luwin (who is secretly a powerful wizard) would spend the next few chapters training Bran to control his powers before he sends Bran off to save the world. That's how it usually works but not in ASOIAF ;).
 
In most novels you don't come across the queen sleeping with her twin brother in the first few chapters.

ASOIAF isn't like most series. Once we all just agree that we can't expect anything the series gets a lot easier to swallow.
 
viZion said:
Yeah, I know, but this thread is about how GRRM treats his main characters and how you don't see that in too many other series. Most authors don't kill or maim their main characters. In fact, you can pretty much expect main characters to invincible and for them to get always get out of seemingly impossible situations.

In another series there might have been a huge pile of hay conveniently below that tower to break Bran's fall so that he could walk away with a few minor scratches rather two useless legs. Or maybe Bran would suddenly tap into his latent magical powers while he's falling and instinctively cast a levitation spell that would save him. Then Maester Luwin (who is secretly a powerful wizard) would spend the next few chapters training Bran to control his powers before he sends Bran off to save the world. That's how it usually works but not in ASOIAF ;).
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Must admit I've read a few of those :) I was half expecting Bran to save himself somehow, summon a huge raven to swoop down and carry him safely to the ground :D

I think ultimately GRRM treats his characters as human, they can be easily hurt and often are. I think that is a strength of the series and only shocking as it rarely happens in fantasy stories. There isn't one main protagonist who is going to save the day, the story is just a chain of events from the eyes of the characters involved, characters swept along with events who are just as likely to be run over by a horse and cart when crossing a road without looking as cut in half in an ambush by opportunist bandits.
 
There isn't one main protagonist who is going to save the day, the story is just a chain of events from the eyes of the characters involved, characters swept along with events who are just as likely to be run over by a horse and cart when crossing a road without looking as cut in half in an ambush by opportunist bandits
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I don't know Tansy, I think I would get pretty annoyed if one of the characters did get run over by a horse and cart :p. I guess in essence that's what this whole thread is about, many ASOIAF readers believe that the death and disfigurement of characters is realistic and well-reasoned, while some think that is is unnecessary and somewhat gratuitous.

I fall in the first camp :).
 
But even you detested them, it's a pretty bad way for their life to end.
Compare Tywin getting run over by a horse and cart to Tywin getting shot by his son whilst on the privy, which I thought was just marvellous.
 
I think it heightens the entire reading experience. You just don't find many books where you honestly don't know what is going to happen on the next page. Most of the time if a character is a POV character, they are safe, 100% safe in most cases, if the story is written by another author. GRRM is very focused on making each danger the characters come across as very real and the only way to do that is to hammer it in with us. Characters are people. People die.
 
I'm a bit rusty but I'll give my predictions in the long run. Dany will probably bite it because I think the series is headed towards a huge revelation about Jon Snow and a potential claim to the blasted Seven Kingdoms. I just have a feeling and if that is to happen Dany will probably die along the way and we'll see dragons go extinct again. I think Tyrion will end up betraying Dany to her death if he winds up with her.

It has been a while since I read ASoS and I never finished AFFC because I decided to pick it up again once I heard a release date for ADwD.

So, please don't flame me if I am remembering some details wrong.
 
I think it'd be pretty awesome to have a character just die like that. Crossing a road, eating bad clams, or random heart attack. I like the unpredictability. Yes, I'd be upset and feel cheated at first, but I want real realism, and not all deaths can be as spectacular as Joffrey and Tywin.
 
Wow! Good conversation...i'm new here, hope you don't mind me hanging out a bit. None of my friends read fantasy:(

I love this series to death, and i'm now re-reading A Feast for Crows because I want stuff to be fresh in my head when Dragons comes out. But it can be equal parts amazing and infuriating sometimes. Sometimes I feel Mr. Martin is just writing true to himself. Gritty is how he writes, it's what speaks to him, and that is what ends up on the page. Sometimes though, it seems that he's gotten swept up in the trend that media has been going in for quite some time, which is a rebellion against pat endings and "knights in shining armor" to the extent that he overdoes it. It isn't that characters you've grown to like die that bothers me. It's that there are very few moments of hope, happiness, levity or peace in the many thousands of pages he's written thus far. Now, in film noir or stylistic books and movies and such, this is forgiveable. They aren't aiming for a realistic approach to anything. But Mr. Martin's whole philosophy it seems is to aim for the "real". The unblinkered look at how a medieval society in upheavel would unfold through the eyes of POV characters of different walks of life, free from the candy-coated nature of many other fantasy worlds. However, in any real world, every once in awhile, SOMEONE would be happy. A character that was "good" would have good things happen to them sometimes. It wouldn't be obvious within a couple of paragraphs that this person is "good"...and therefore they are doomed. Or that this person is "bad" or "manipulative" or "conniving"...and therefore will have things go their way for a very long time.

I wouldn't want the scales between hope and doom to be even, or for there to even be scales. However, when very little that's good ever happens...even fleetingly...the quest for "real" becomes unrealistic.

Ah well though...i'm hooked regardless. The man just spins too damn good a yarn.
 
Welcome Fandulin and we certainly hope you do hang about for a while, get to know the locals (beware Boaz) and share some new ideas.

While, you are right that there certainly very few happy moments or those of levity, I would argue that there are some. Not many but some.

Examples:
When Arya freed and saved Jaqen Ha'gar
When Sam finally got laid
When they found the direwolves
When Arya learned to waterdance with Syrio Forel
When Asha shows her dear brother, Theon, his place
 
Poor frigid Sam, it was about time for him xD ANd yes beware Boaz and his crazy theories :p
 
I think the thing to remember is that, althought there is a lot of 'bad' stuff happening, like characters dying etc, that makes every time your favourite character survives a close scrape into something 'good'; it's just that we usually take this for granted.

I think it would be possible to pick out more occurences of characters avoiding death than dying.
 
Well, I'll just put it in the words of Martin himself.

To roughly quote: "Most fantasy novels are like a disney movie. They have the lords feasting but no dogs running in the hall, waiting for handouts and giving everyone fleas."
 
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