GOT discussion for aSoIaF readers (SPOILERS)

[Needle]

There were also five or so swords lying around after their owners were clubbed with said wooden sword.

My thoughts exactly! The broken wooden sword means nothing with all the swords lef around from those he had already taken down.

I shall follow TK to my DVR to see if I can spot Trant later. Honestly can't remember from the books if he is mentioned after or not, anyone know for sure?

I also liked that they showed the Septa trying to protect Sansa, we knew one of the heads on the wall was hers, but always kinda wondered why they felt it necessary to kill her.

 

[Conor]

My thoughts exactly! The broken wooden sword means nothing with all the swords lef around from those he had already taken down.


I also liked that they showed the Septa trying to protect Sansa, we knew one of the heads on the wall was hers, but always kinda wondered why they felt it necessary to kill her.

They killed everybody, thats where it really got to me in the book..I thought "Wow these guys are really hardcore"

 

[TK-421]

My thoughts exactly! The broken wooden sword means nothing with all the swords lef around from those he had already taken down.

I shall follow TK to my DVR to see if I can spot Trant later. Honestly can't remember from the books if he is mentioned after or not, anyone know for sure?

I also liked that they showed the Septa trying to protect Sansa, we knew one of the heads on the wall was hers, but always kinda wondered why they felt it necessary to kill her.

Yes Trant is in the later books. The point I was making is that he seems to appear very soon after the encounter with Syrio. The theory was that Syrio somehow escaped Trant or that he was a Faceless Man like Jaqen and did not truly die. Or that he was Jaqen and instead od dying he was captured.

While there were swords laying around, Syrio never seemed to make a move for them. Purposely done, me thinks.

I just thought that Trant appearing so soon after the fight with Syrion was perhaps GRRM's way to put that theory to bed.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Wow, I actually thought the opposite. I felt that the very fact they didn't show Syrio die was indicative that he didn't - I couldn't see why they wouldn't when they've been happy to show killings before...

 

[Mesanna]

I tend to agree Hilarious Joke. I thought the fact that we didn't see Syrio die was a point in favour of him still being alive.

Or, more likely, maybe GRRM just loves teasing the fans and told the directors that it deliberately had to be left open-ended. Git!

 

[Ursa major]

He may even have told the directors that Syrio's fate had to be left to the imagination "because of what happens later" (possibly knowing full well that they will never see Syrio, in any form, again).

 

[Oxman]

The Syrio thing could well have been left ambiguous just to torment the readers, as Ursa pointed out, but there is one thing that niggles me.

When Syrio was training earlier with Ayra, he mentioned the only god being death, and what do we say to him? "Not today."

This was reiterated in episode 8, when Syrio tells Ayra to run. "Not today," she even says, just before Syrio repeats it, as if to himself.

It does appear that Ser Meryn Trant is indeed in front of the Iron Throne when Selmy is dismissed. But then, it appears to me that Trant would be entirely the sort of person to keep it quiet if the Braavosi had somehow eluded him and escaped or knocked him out temporarily (after all, Syrio does not run...).

This led me to a chain of thinking regarding the Imp's crackpot theory. Which one, you ask? - The one that Eddard is not actually dead. In the TV series, when Varys visits Ned in his cell, they pretty much cover all of the details in the book, save for the bits about Sansa's plea (due to chronology - Sansa's pleas on tv occur before Ned & Varys). Varys uses the "Not today" line to Ned, which is odd. I've re-read the cell scene and Varys doesn't say this in the book. It just felt a little off to squeeze into that scene. And very GRRM.

Saying that, I'm pretty sure Ned is dead. The above throws a few coals on the fire, but in the book we see the scene from a distance via Ayra (who recognises her father aside from him looking gaunt and weak - and doesn't notice his voice being any different) and closer up in retrospect via Sansa (no doubts it's Eddard in her mind. She can't even bear to look away). The only iffy bits are the "unrecognisable" tar covered severed head on the spike or the possibility that Varys got him out of the cell and replaced him with a faceless man (too convoluted, even if Varys says he could get Ned out - but won't).

When the time comes, my bet is that Ned's execution will be shown full blown and close up. It's the first massive shock in the book that I remember. And would make quite the iconic image or cliffhanger on the TV show.

 

[X'Nedra]

Hmmm... when reading GoT I never considered that Ned isn't dead. Now I'm kinda liking that theory and hope the Imp is right. But that might just be the child in me who wishes for happily ever after - a part which really shouldn't be involved in reading this book or watching this series at all!

 

[Conor]

Hmmm... when reading GoT I never considered that Ned isn't dead. Now I'm kinda liking that theory and hope the Imp is right. But that might just be the child in me who wishes for happily ever after - a part which really shouldn't be involved in reading this book or watching this series at all!

I was hoping that Yoren smuggled Ned out of Kings Landing and that he was one of the cretins chained up in the wagon. My hopes died along with Yoren and when Arya helped the the prisoners at the end of the battle with the Lannistermen.

 

[Brian G Turner]

This led me to a chain of thinking regarding the Imp's crackpot theory. Which one, you ask? - The one that Eddard is not actually dead. In the TV series, when Varys visits Ned in his cell, they pretty much cover all of the details in the book, save for the bits about Sansa's plea (due to chronology - Sansa's pleas on tv occur before Ned & Varys). Varys uses the "Not today" line to Ned, which is odd.

Remember, the plan was to send Ned to the Wall. It was Joffrey, at the last moment, who gets in a tantrum and demands Ned be killed, much to the horror of everyone else. Even in Arya's POV, doesn't she see Varys making an effort to try and stop proceedings?

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Remember, the plan was to send Ned to the Wall. It was Joffrey, at the last moment, who gets in a tantrum and demands Ned be killed, much to the horror of everyone else. Even in Arya's POV, doesn't she see Varys making an effort to try and stop proceedings?

Agreed. The plan was to have "mercy" on Ned by sending him to the Wall. I seem to remember that there were some laughs of having him meet up with his ******* son again. But yes, I think it was Joffrey who got the man killed. And his head was rolling, too...I don't see why they would do a switcheroo and kill someone other than Ned.

 

[Needle]

The Syrio thing could well have been left ambiguous just to torment the readers, as Ursa pointed out, but there is one thing that niggles me.

When Syrio was training earlier with Ayra, he mentioned the only god being death, and what do we say to him? "Not today."

This was reiterated in episode 8, when Syrio tells Ayra to run. "Not today," she even says, just before Syrio repeats it, as if to himself.

It does appear that Ser Meryn Trant is indeed in front of the Iron Throne when Selmy is dismissed. But then, it appears to me that Trant would be entirely the sort of person to keep it quiet if the Braavosi had somehow eluded him and escaped or knocked him out temporarily (after all, Syrio does not run...)..

YES, YES, YES, I like it! "Not today."

I do agree that Trant would not tell anyone if Syrio got away, and he would not have seemed important enough for Cersei or anyone else to want to see the body so it is unlikely anyone else would find out.

 

[TK-421]

Ned and Syrio are dead. I think GRRM knows that people have a hard letting go of well-liked characters so he introduces little bits of ambiguity. More for some than others.

For Ned, he is definetly dead and GRRM had to show it like that. There is no doubt. This was the pivotal moment when many readers, said "whooaaa" when they read that part. For Syrio, he could be a little more ambiguous because it just added to the mystery of the Syrio character. Who was he really and could he really be dead?? This is the same of Benjen and Sandor. Because neither died on paper, we are never sure of there true fates.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

You mean yet, TK. We are not sure of their true fates yet. I am quite confident that a lot will be explained to our satisfaction in due time.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I thought we had Sandor figured in the robe? Well, I didn't, others here did.

 

[Ursa major]

Perhaps, as a treat, GRRM will add an epilogue to the end of the last novel of ASoIaF within which the POV character, Death, is going through his records to make sure they are complete and accurate.

He will look at Syrio's date, mutter, "That's not right: it isn't today!" and put in the correct date (one shared with many members of the Stark household resident in King's Landing when Ned was arrested.

 

[svalbard]

Ned and Syrio are dead. I think GRRM knows that people have a hard letting go of well-liked characters so he introduces little bits of ambiguity. More for some than others.

For Ned, he is definetly dead and GRRM had to show it like that. There is no doubt. This was the pivotal moment when many readers, said "whooaaa" when they read that part. For Syrio, he could be a little more ambiguous because it just added to the mystery of the Syrio character. Who was he really and could he really be dead?? This is the same of Benjen and Sandor. Because neither died on paper, we are never sure of there true fates.

I would have agreed with you on Syrio and Ned except for the blurb on ADWD about a character returning. That could be Benjen though because a lot of that book will be on The Wall.

A pet theory of mine was that Benjen is Coldhands?

 

[Ursa major]

I thought the consensus was that it's Theon that's returning.


(Or am I confusing returning POV characters with... er... others.)



But in just over a month, we will know the answer.

 

[svalbard]

I thought the consensus was that it's Theon that's returning.


(Or am I confusing returning POV characters with... er... others.)



But in just over a month, we will know the answer.

If it is Theon, great! I always liked him.

Back to Syrio for a sceond. I was just re-watching the fight scene. At the end of it when Arya is running away you can hear the sound of steel on steel, even though our last picture of Syrio is of him with a broken wooden sword. Food for thought...

 

[Mesanna]

Perhaps, as a treat, GRRM will add an epilogue to the end of the last novel of ASoIaF within which the POV character, Death, is going through his records to make sure they are complete and accurate.

He will look at Syrio's date, mutter, "That's not right: it isn't today!" and put in the correct date (one shared with many members of the Stark household resident in King's Landing when Ned was arrested.

Ahem, won't Death say "THAT'S NOT RIGHT: IT ISN'T TODAY!"

Signed, Pratchett fan