Who's your favourite non-POV character?

[ASleepyGiraffe]

Thanks Boaz, I found that really inciteful, it helps to get different opinions on things. I agree with pretty much everything you said. I also realise my post made it seem that Robb was my favourite character, but I don't really have one. Martin's characters tend to be so well developed that they are all engaging in some way. I especially agree with this;

All of them appeal to me more than Robb, because they all acknowledge their broken vows, their lack of scruples, their own selfishness. They all desire redemption. They know they need to atone for their sins. Will they actually do it? I dunno, but it makes for great characters.

"Broken" characters are a lot more believeable and a lot more interesting. I guess this is because we know that the world is never as simple as black and white, and there are indiscriminant shades of grey in all of us. It is extremely rare to find someone who is solely good or evil. (yay generalisations)

I also agree with Tywin, particulalry this;

Robb was the most powerful manifestation of this theme, and that's why his death was very hard for me to take

 

[Boaz]

Thanks Boaz, I found that really inciteful...

Thank you, Tim. Many people are incited after reading my rants and half-baked theories...

Let me make one point clear... When I said that I no longer like teenagers because I am not a teenager, I did not mean that adults are more valuable than children. I'm just saying that I'm at a different point in life and so different characters and themes now resonate with me that did not when I was younger. If I had picked up ASOIAF when I was a teen, I'm sure I'd resonate with Jon, Robb, and the themes of "Who am I?", passionate love, and wargs.

The younger generation always fights to keep love and hope alive against the ravages of responsibility and obligations.

Don Juan DeMarco is one of my favorite movies and it exemplifies these themes of passion and destiny. At one point Don Juan asks his court appointed psychiatrist, Dr. Mickler, "Why does everyone want to pervert love and suck it dry of all its glory? Why do you bother to call it love anymore?" At the end, Dr. Mickler comes around... "My name is Don Octavio del Flores. I am the world's greatest psychologist. Sadly, I must report that the last patient I ever treated, the great lover Don Juan DeMarco, suffered from a romanticism which was completely incurable, and even worse, highly contagious."

 

[ASleepyGiraffe]

When I said that I no longer like teenagers because I am not a teenager, I did not mean that adults are more valuable than children.

Boaz, I can assure you that I didn't get that impression. And I definately agree that perhaps too many books revolve around teenage protagonists. (Gets a bit tedious after a while).

I can also empathise that as we get older our preferences change.
I myself find that I enjoy darker and grittier characters, filled with personal flaws that they have to overcome or deal with. It's probablly why I like A Song of Ice and Fire so much, and others such as Joe Abercrombie.

The younger generation always fights to keep love and hope alive against the ravages of responsibility and obligations.

- couldn't agree more.

I'll have to watch Don Juan Demarco, sounds good

 

[Tywin]

Boaz,

You got a lot in there and I'm right with you, but I just wanted to add a nuance to one of your themes. Revolving around whether or not Eddard did or did not live up to the Stark Words "Winter is Coming":

I've posted this elsewhere, years ago, but I contend that Eddard did not live up to the words Winter is Coming. I believe that he failed to adequately prepare his children for the hard times.

...

On the other hand, Tywin Lannister, that heartless manipulator, taught two of his children the harsh realities of life. He coddled Jaime and Jaime was stolen away. Cersei and Tyrion may not have had a choice to be political animals, but you cannot say they were not prepared for it.

When the Starks say "Winter is Coming", they don't just mean "Hard times are coming", what they mean is "Times so hard are coming that all your petty squabbles will be dwarfed by it."

Eddard prepared his children for winter. He did not prepare them for the political machinations of summer. When the White Walkers come south of the wall it won't matter how much gold is in Casterly Rock, it won't matter who knows secrets about who, and it won't matter who can spin the most intricate plot. Winter is coming. The Starks are prepared.

 

[Keebs411]

I love the Reed family (Meera, Jojen and Howland)! Even now they still have the Stark Familys back. As little as we know about them compared to other families/houses i find them facinating! i wish we could experience
Jojen's dreams they way we got to with Bran.
Also Rhaegar Targaryen, we have so much of what others rmeber or have seen but to have a chapter of charecter flash backs would be great for the ones who are gone before the series began...
Maester Aemon and Old Nan. With as long as old nana seems to have been around id love to be in her mind set and possibly seem the things she has and remebers.

i know Varys was mentioned but what about Illyrio Mopatis. i cant recall any POV chapters for him but i would guess that too much would be given away much like if Varys had a POV. the 2 seem to be the bigger and exceptionally talented puppeteers of everything so far. even when somthing goes bad like the liquid pot of gold crown gifted by khal drogo and anything else some how they are still able to work with the wild cards and changes and keep their plans afloat

Mel would be another id like to see , see how she is really reacting and dealing with her visions and plans

 

[Boaz]

Major House Stark SPOILERS!!! Or at least what I think happened to Lyanna.

Tywin, fair enough. The original Stark words most likely did actually mean The Other. Wow... that's scary.

Now just a comment on Starks going south. Over the last three generations, nine Starks have gone to the summer lands... some of them on multiple occasions: Lord Rickard, Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna, Benjen, Sansa, Arya, Catelyn, and Robb. Shall I list the horrors of unprepared Starks? Rickard was roasted alive. Brandon was arrested and strangled. Eddard was attacked in the street, wounded, betrayed in a coup d'etat, left in a dungeon, forced to admit to treason in order to save his children, and then beheaded. Lyanna was raped, abducted, and died from complications after childbirth. Sansa was emotionally and physically abused by Cersei, Joffrey, and various members of the Kingsguard, then she was forced to marry against her will, then accused of regicide, abducted by Littlefinger, almost killed by Lysa, and now told that she must marry again. Arya has been on the run for years now experiencing starvation, exposure to the elements, beatings, kidnapping, and many death threats. Catelyn and Robb died when their host reneged upon his promise of safety and murdered them under his roof. Only Benjen avoided kidnapping, arrest, or death in the South.... but then again, he's the only one to go north of the Wall, but that's another story. The moral is... stay home Starks!

Keebs, Rhaegar and Aemon are intriguing characters. Was Rhaegar the villain that Robert thinks or the honest man that Barristan remembers? Aemon's choices were more numerous and more difficult than Jon's.

Howland is not an intriguing character... he's an enigmatic character who is absolutely essential to solving "Promise me, Ned." I'm dying to know what he knows.

 

[Tywin]

Keebs - I think Mel does have some POV chapters.

Boaz - Loved where you laid out the fate of all the Starks who went south, but for me that just makes me feel like the reckoning will be all the greater when the wolf pups grow up.

BTW, I don't subscribe to the Lyanna raped by Rhaegar theory - I think that's what Robert wanted to believe, rather than that she chose Rhaegar over him. I think GRRM has put too much foreshadowing into the attractiveness of Rhaegar and the romance of him presenting her with those flowers after the tournament at Harrenhal. My money is on those two having eloped.

 

[Keebs411]

Well put!! The starks have no luck in the south. Even Osha seemed to know this when she tried to warn bran for his brother rob. Also did anyone else notice the dire wolf they found dead in the begining of AGOT. The parent wolf is killed by the horn/antler of a stag leaving 5 pups(children) abandoned. I know in the story itself they point out a pup for each stark child how ever the cause of the parent wolf was a stag. Much like joff (stag) took out Ned (wolf) leaving his childreed s attered and abandoned.

Keebs, Rhaegar and Aemon are intriguing characters. Was Rhaegar the villain that Robert thinks or the honest man that Barristan remembers? Aemon's choices were more numerous and more difficult than Jon's.

Howland is not an intriguing character... he's an enigmatic character who is absolutely essential to solving "Promise me, Ned." I'm dying to know what he knows.

Agreed i wouldnt refer to howland as intriguing but im just facinated and curious as to what he knows and i think it maybe a bit more then the truth off what happened with Ned's sister. No one has seen him sinc. Hes become a hermit and stays i his home is this just so no one will question him? The fact he sends out his only 2 children ( and only heirs) to winterfell during a time of war all because his son had a dream vision? Every one else in kingdoms dont believe in any type of magic, wargs, green greams, grumpkins, giants and the Others. It is nothing but stuff from the past long exstinct or of fairytales and stories to them ( aside from the wildings, those now on the wall and those who follow the lord of light and fire they know) yet howland doesnt question his sons vision and sends him. Are they a very close open and trusting family with one another or does he maybe know somthing a bit more. I just wanna know what he knows!! Smart man living in a place so difficult to find and get to.

Rhaegar and Aemon how ever deff intiguing. For all that we hear and know we seem to build some sort of attachment to them. We get to know aemon more personally be ause he was still alive to share his thoughts, and aside from roberst opinion of rhaegar everyone elses outlook starts to make most people( at leats me) a big fan and feel bad for how things played out for him.

 

[Boaz]

Warning. ADWD SPOILER!

Tywin, I hate to break it to you, but three of the six, in the litter, already went south. Two are dead and one is lost. BUT, if Shaggy could ever meet up with Nymeria and work with Rickon in a guerrilla war against the Lannisters (especially if the war continues), then they could cause some serious problems... but that's years in the future. I like the Starks, I'd like to see them survive, thrive, and regain their place, but my favorite characters are the Lannister boys. By the way, did you like the episode of Season Two where Grey Wind threatens Jaime?

I DO NOT subscribe to the theory that Rhaegar abducted and raped Lyanna. Neither do I believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped. Rhaegar was already married to Elia... polygamy would have been political disaster. Dany saw a vision in the House of the Undying of Rhaegar naming Aegon at his birth. Marrying Lyanna would only have created tension in the succession. Rhaegar, from Aemon's, Barristan's and Connington's memories, was not a fool. I believe that Aerys II raped Lyanna and then Rhaegar abducted/rescued her from Aerys II and hid her. No one else agrees with me... yet.

Good discussion! But, uh, mayhaps I should make an attempt to keep from straying too far from the theme of this thread.... I do like Kevan Lannister... a lot. I wanted to get his POV in AFFC and ADWD. I felt kicked in the gut the second I realized that he was the POV for the ADWD epilogue. Every prologue and epilogue POV character dies... And I think Connington's POV has tremendous potential. He was an intimate of Rhaegar and Elia. He fought against Robert. He was exiled in shame and penury. He faked his death. He became a sellsword. He secretly took in Rhaegar's supposedly dead son, Aegon. He contracted an incurable and lethal disease. He now is leading Aegon's forces in a new Targaryen invasion. Power, honor, dishonor, shame, trust, sickness, validation, promises....

 

[Hilarious Joke]

I DO NOT subscribe to the theory that Rhaegar abducted and raped Lyanna. Neither
do I believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped. Rhaegar was already married to
Elia... polygamy would have been political disaster. Dany saw a vision in the
House of the Undying of Rhaegar naming Aegon at his birth. Marrying Lyanna would
only have created tension in the succession. Rhaegar, from Aemon's, Barristan's
and Connington's memories, was not a fool. I believe that Aerys II raped Lyanna
and then Rhaegar abducted/rescued her from Aerys II and hid her. No one else
agrees with me... yet.

Not a bad theory Boaz! I like it better than Tyrion's a Targ

 

[Boaz]

In my mind, the two are linked. I fully expect to eat lots of crow after ADOS is published.

 

[littlebird]

The Hound, of course! But also...Hot Pie.

 

[The Imp]

DO NOT subscribe to the theory that Rhaegar abducted and raped Lyanna. Neither do I believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped. Rhaegar was already married to Elia... polygamy would have been political disaster. Dany saw a vision in the House of the Undying of Rhaegar naming Aegon at his birth. Marrying Lyanna would only have created tension in the succession. Rhaegar, from Aemon's, Barristan's and Connington's memories, was not a fool. I believe that Aerys II raped Lyanna and then Rhaegar abducted/rescued her from Aerys II and hid her. No one else agrees with me... yet.

Boaz, you can put me at the top of the list of people that agree with you. The idea is brilliant. It would also mean that if Jon is the product of that rape, and if Jon was legitimized by Robb, then Jon precedes Aegon or Dany in any line of succession. I'm not even sure that given the Targ "rules of engagement" that legitimacy matters.

 

[Boaz]

To further derail this thread, my apologies to Kharon the OP, according to GRRM Dany is the product of rape even though her parents were married to each other and according to my theory, Tyrion is the product of rape, Aerys II taking Joanna. So is a third child of rape, a third rape child of Aerys II, and potentially the third dragon's head need to be another child of rape? Yes. It's brutal. It's over the top. It's horrid. But the Rhaegar/Lyanna secret love story is too cute for me.

I'm not advocating rape. I'm not even advocating premarital intercourse. I only advocate intercourse in the actual state of legal marriage and then only by consent.

Yes, Tyrion would be the eldest, then Jon, then Dany, then Aegon as Aerys II's grandson, but it would be up to Connington, Baelish, Doran, and the most powerful junta of lords as to which Targ or half-Targ rules. And then don't forget that my theory also extends to Cersei and Jaime as half-Targ bastards... meaning Myrcella and Tommen are full half-Targ grandchilren of Aerys II. I fully recognize the lunacy of this... it's worse than Days of our Lives ever was.

But we'll see how GRRM plays it out... I'm fully expecting to be right.... or wrong. I'm enjoying the ride.

P.S. - By the way, I started downing Kentucky Bourbon about two hours ago... yeah, I know it was only 1 pm, but hey... it's five o'clock somewhere. Plus... I have three other people with whom I watch every episode of AGOT on HBO.... three hours and twenty minutes 'til showtime.

 

[Tywin]

I'm not even advocating premarital intercourse. I only advocate intercourse in the actual state of legal marriage and then only by consent.

How boring. I'll go ahead and advocate premarital intercourse. It was a lot more exciting for me than the marital kind anyway.

And then don't forget that my theory also extends to Cersei and Jaime as half-Targ bastards... meaning Myrcella and Tommen are full half-Targ grandchilren of Aerys II.

I don't see Tywin sitting around letting his wife get raped more than once. Tyrion being the product of rape makes sense, especially given Tywin's distance from him compared to his other children who he fawns (or as close as he ever gets to fawning) over.

Cutesie as the R+L theory is, I still think its a lot more likely than a rape of Lyanna by Aerys. Rhaegar obviously liked Lyanna and probably vice versa. If it had been a rape of Lyanna I think based on the personalities so far described that Rhaegar would have removed his crazy father from the throne and taken it for himself - with the support of the vast majority of Westeros.

 

[Boaz]

How boring.

Experientially, I confess that I agree... but theoretically speaking, I'll stick to my guns. Wait... did I really just type that? Oh, I long for a perfect world... and not the one I in which I live.

Uh, did I mention that the Mormonts are by far my favorite non-POV family. Jorah is Jean Valjean, with some major warts, in my opinion. Jeor, the Old Bear, is, err was.... the most excellent gruff, hard nosed, and pragmatic Lord Commander. And Dacey is... err, was... just.... mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

It's such a Toss-up between Bronn and Berric Dondarion

Bronn is such an awesome, darkly funny character. I especially liked the way he dealt with the attempt on his life in Feast for Crows was amazing. Whoever said he turned all lordly and disappeared couldnt be more wrong. Well he did disapear but he's still the Bronn I know and love.

Dondarion i really liked just because he was a legend by the time we met him. He had died like, 6 times. He was all worn out and strung out but still fighting for... Who? pretty much himself. Looking to finnish the task that Ned sent him on in GoT. You gotta love that kind of determination.

I also really like Varys, Tywin and the Hound.

Baelish always pissed me off, but He is increadibly smart. I think I actually gasped out loud when it turned out the the Kettleblacks, who were always going back and forth between Cersei and Tyrion, ended up being in Littlefingers pockets. IMO, he is the grand puppet master, and Varys is the writer of the play.

 

[Hilarious Joke]

Bronn is such an awesome, darkly funny character. I especially liked the way he
dealt with the attempt on his life in Feast for Crows was amazing. Whoever said
he turned all lordly and disappeared couldnt be more wrong. Well he did disapear
but he's still the Bronn I know and love.

I actually always quite liked Bronn in the books, and I think he is excellent in the TV series. He came across much better than the Hound in their little confrontation. Loved it.

 

[Symphinity]

I second the hound!

 

[Boaz]

I actually always quite liked Bronn in the books, and I think he is excellent in the TV series. He came across much better than the Hound in their little confrontation. Loved it.

HJ, I loved that scene. In my opinion, it was the best in the first two seasons. When I first saw it, I thought, Dang! Why didn't GRRM write that into the story? But then I noticed that he wrote that episode... so he did write it.

Aragorn riding off a cliff and Denthor doing the flaming 100m are egregiously horrid rewrites. But the Hound growling, "You think you're a hard man?" And steely eyed Bronn answering, "Oh, I know I am." was a brilliantly envisioned heart pounding showdown that shows what the original writer can do with hindsight.

Anyway, because of the trivia thread I was thinking of Vargo Hoat and Shitmouth and what inspired characters they are. Then I clicked on the User CP to change my quote to "Thaphireth!" and I saw a message from Kharon, the OP, regarding this thread.

These sort of minor non-POV characters really make the story. Dolorous Edd. The Greatjon. Janos Slynt. Ygritte. Hodor. They are all so simple.

Other minor characters sometimes convey GRRM's themes that may too constricting for a POV character. Themes of social and judicial justice, love versus lust, humility, honor, righteousness, forgiveness... Septon Meribald's speech at the end of Brienne's fifth chapter of AFFC is probably the best example.

"Ser? My Lady?" said Podrick. "Is a broken man an outlaw?"
"More or less," Brienne replied.
Septon Meribald disagreed. "More less than more... The singers love to sing of good men forced to go outside the law to fight some wicked lord, but most outlaws are more like this ravening Hound than they are the lightning lord.... Broken men are more deserving of our pity, though they may be just as dangerous..."

"...Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war... War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know.
Then they get a taste of battle."

"... And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize..."

"And the man breaks.
He turns and runs, or crawls off... the broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them...but he should pity them as well."

...The quiet stretched and stretched, until finally she said, "How old were you when they marched you off to war?"
"Why, no older than your boy." Meribald replied. "Too young for such, in truth, but my brohers were all going, and I would not be left behind. William said I could be his squire, though Will was no knight, only a potboy armed with a kitchen knife he'd stolen from the inn. He died upon the Stepstones, and never struck a blow. It was fever did for him, and for my brother Robin. Owen died from a mace that split his head apart, and his friend Jon Pox was hanged for rape."
"The War of the Ninepenny Kings?" asked Hyle Hunt.
"So they called it, though I never saw a king, nor earned a penny. It was a war, though. That it was."

Tywin, you've made some great observations in this thread. Thanks for your insights.

By the way, did I really compare Jorah Mormont to Jean Valjean? I'd like to take that one back. He's more Javert than Valjean.