GRRM ruined a song of ice and fire by killing too many good characters

[Eulalia]

Yes, I think GRRM could have emphasized the point that Robb needed to go through Frey territory, (supply lines) and needed the allies, more than they couldn't cross a river, and needed the Twins, however preferable that was. There are a few examples in history that I can think of, though, where crossing a river is a big problem.

I do think characters not staying dead is a bit dicey. There is a lot going on with undead in this series, however, since GRRM made that commitment at the beginning.

The whole revenge against the Freys idea has interesting consequences. And the family is numerous...

 

[joaomadeira1000]

I really liked all the different opinions here. However, I tried to make it very clear that I did understand that aSoIaF was about, that it was much larger than the Starks. But I do believe I was deceived into loving the books because of them, so that GRRM could destroy them and say "I'm unpredictable, I keep things real. From now on, things will be about Jon and Dany, because that is how life is". That was a very cheap shot for me. Really, any author can do that. There is a reason they don't.

I can't be the only one who was drawed to this series because of the Starks, and perceived them as the main characters. When GRRM killed Ned, Robb and Cat, the plot "Starks Vs. Lannister" was wasted, IN MY OPINION. And that ruined aSoIaF FOR ME.

Again, if you still care about the rest of the series, I envy you. I really wanted to still be in love with it. At this point, it seems to me that GRRM just wants to tell what happened in Westeros as a documentary, describing realistic historic events. I think he could have had a GREAT STORY if he kept gave the Starks some sort of satisfaction. Now, I'll just wait a few years to ask someone how Dany conquered Westeros back and how Jon Snow restored order in the north. And I truly won't care at all who lived and who died.

P.s.: someone asked if I truly thought Dany's victories were predictable, specially in Meereen, I think. My answer is yes, and that makes me even more positive that GRRM killing spree is so artificial. I mean, I did not always see how, but I know Dany will always win. C'mon, she needs warriors, she gets a few Dothraki. She needs money, people pay to see her dragons, but no one tries to steal them. She needs more money and ships, Illirio sends some. She needs an army, the brilliant slavers sell all their unsullied robots to be reprogramed and keep none to defend themselves. Oh, and she also gets dragons. Call all that realistic. GRRM follows exactaly the same formula some have said he brilliantly broke, but with Dany. He broke the formula with the Starks? Yes. Stupidly. But he follows it to the letter with Dany.

 

[Warren_Paul]

C'mon, she needs warriors, she gets a few Dothraki. She needs money, people pay to see her dragons, but no one tries to steal them. She needs more money and ships, Illirio sends some. She needs an army, the brilliant slavers sell all their unsullied robots to be reprogramed and keep none to defend themselves. Oh, and she also gets dragons. Call all that realistic. GRRM follows exactaly the same formula some have said he brilliantly broke, but with Dany. He broke the formula with the Starks? Yes. Stupidly. But he follows it to the letter with Dany.

Hmm, I'm not sure how much you have read now, but I'd say keep reading in regards to Dany. Her story is hardly peachy and smooth and half of it is her age and inexperience showing through. Likely she will win, although I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM makes her lose right at the end - there are other factors involved now that may change things. I'm not going to say what for the sake of spoilers.

 

[Eulalia]

Well, Jo, it's unfortunate that TRW ruined the series for you!

There are still some Starks and Lannisters lurking about. I would say, read a Wiki of, (for example) Margaret of Anjou, and then see if it sounds familiar. But a perusal of the Wars of the Roses would be even better. See if all the Yorks and the Lancasters survive, and if a teenage king such as Robb, ends the wars. Still GRRM is a writer, so of course he could have ended it that way. I would have been very disappointed!

To be fair, GRRM is one of the few writers that seems to have a world view similar to my own, underneath the fantasy, that allows him to illlustrate many topics and I do cheer him on to some extent. He plainly also enjoys history, although in a fantasy, he has more freedom to expand on themes and imagine characters.

 

[biodroid]

I disagree with the thread heading. I have read AGOT and loved it (I never thought I would get into it). I am now 11% into ACOK and the story is still building up, I just can't wait to see what will all pan out. I also thought the fantasy elements were a bit lacking but I can see them slowly making it's way into story which is a nice way of mixing "historical" with fantasy. It doesn't bother me that important characters get killed of, it just re-enforces the truth that these characters are not super human and are always vulnerable. It makes the story that much more interesting and I am sure there is a reason for killing off these characters and I am also sure there is a larger story arc.

 

[juleska]

I think this is a really interesting discussion and I fully sympathize with the OP's misgivings. I picked up this series when the show came out last year and bought the first 4 books to see what the hype was all about. By the time I got to TRW I was blazing through the books really fast, was devastated but was so heavily invested in other characters that I had to keep reading just to find out what happened with Arya, Jon, etc. Once you get past TRW and into AFFC, the sting wears off.

In my humble opinion, it *is* worth it to keep reading. If I didn't think so I would've stopped about where you have, but if I'd done that I think I would have missed out on one of the greatest literary journeys of my life.

Also, FWIW, I absolutely, unequivocally loathed Dany for the first 2 books. I hated her less during ASOS, but it wasn't until ADWD (since she wasn't in AFFC) that I really started to like her. Which is ironic because most Dany fans hated her chapters in ADWD.

I say keep reading, you may change your mind. If you get through the next book and still feel as strongly that there's no reason to keep reading, then do what's right for you. But give it a chance. I've been angry with GRRM before, and he redeemed himself. Not by making sure the good guys won all the times I thought they should have, but by altering my perceptions and checking my assumptions about who the good guys really were.

*That* is the part that keeps it real for me.....not the possibility of imminent death for any of my favorite characters.....but the complexity of people's motivations and actions against our own assumptions about them, ourselves, and the world in general.

But that's just me.

 

[biodroid]

GRRM's characters and story has changed the way I read books most likely forever. I can't see myself reading the pretty standard fair like Feist (I do like REF still) but the cliches don't exist in ASOIAF. My eyes are opened to the possibilities that farm boys are not always awesome and can learn any sword skill or magic spell in a matter of 5 pages. The characters actions is what propels the story, not the prophecy of doom the farm boy has defeat. Thanks to GRRM I think new fantasy authors need to up their game to keep up with the current trends. I am definitely going to read all the books even if they taper off in pace.

 

[HareBrain]

GRRM's characters and story has changed the way I read books most likely forever. I can't see myself reading the pretty standard fair like Feist (I do like REF still) but the cliches don't exist in ASOIAF. My eyes are opened to the possibilities that farm boys are not always awesome and can learn any sword skill or magic spell in a matter of 5 pages. The characters actions is what propels the story, not the prophecy of doom the farm boy has defeat. Thanks to GRRM I think new fantasy authors need to up their game to keep up with the current trends. I am definitely going to read all the books even if they taper off in pace.

Not if they look at the success of Eragon, sadly ...

People keep advancing this argument for GRRM, and I keep thinking "Hold on, was fantasy really that bad before?" But perhaps epic fantasy was. At any rate, I definitely agree that ASOIAF was/is a Good Thing for fantasy.

 

[devilsgrin]

in response to the jo's OP, i have to agree in part. I do think that the "shock and realism" factor of GRRM killing off POV characters (Catelyn and Ned), and major players (Tywin, Robb and Renly) has completely worn off. I also agree that it lessens ALL the characters because we can't become as fully invested in their fortunes, since they could be killed off in a chapter. (always excepting the characters so wrapped up in Plot-Armour that they're there til the end no questions, ifs, buts or maybes - Dany, Jon and Tyrion, and possibly Arya. )

Having said that, apart from the almost pedestrian meandering of ADWD, i've flown through these books within hours of buying each one. I cannot, ever, put them down. admittedly being a human i do sometimes have to take a break - the Red Wedding was so intense, i actually had to re-read two or three times, because the pacing had me literally skipping lines to see what would happen.

GRRM, and ASOIAF, has certainly changed mainstream fantasy fiction for the better... there have been several far lesser know author's whose books are very nearly as gritty, if not so willing to lop the head off their main characters... (which is NOT what makes ASOIAF great btw, but it IS what gets people talking about it)

 

[biodroid]

Not if they look at the success of Eragon, sadly ...

People keep advancing this argument for GRRM, and I keep thinking "Hold on, was fantasy really that bad before?" But perhaps epic fantasy was. At any rate, I definitely agree that ASOIAF was/is a Good Thing for fantasy.

But Eragon itself is the cliche of all cliche's. I tried to read the book, hated the first 2 pages, then was forced to go watch the movie which was a rehash of some famous fantasy SF movies shoved into one stupid movie.

I never thought anything of how the dark lords/evil entity always wants to destroy the world until I realised hey, what are they going to rule once everything is destroyed? Seems like a lot of these stories always make the evil antagonist hate everything but wants to rule dust and ruins. Yes makes perfect sense. That's why I like ASOIAF, it's the ultimate power struggle between warring factions/houses. They still need something to rule over.

 

[The Procrastinator]

This is one of the things I ask myself, though. These thoughtless nobles have started wars everywhere, fields are burning when they should be getting in the last crops before the onset of the long winter. (Why don't they seem so worried about Winter on the Continent, btw? Do they not have it there?)

If this is going to be one of those stories where the lone victor is left to starve in a field of dead with only the crows for company, spare me!

 

[Warren_Paul]

This is one of the things I ask myself, though. These thoughtless nobles have started wars everywhere, fields are burning when they should be getting in the last crops before the onset of the long winter. (Why don't they seem so worried about Winter on the Continent, btw? Do they not have it there?)

If this is going to be one of those stories where the lone victor is left to starve in a field of dead with only the crows for company, spare me!

I think they have just got so occupied with the war that they forgot, which we see from the final scene, as the PoV character was taken by surprise to see the white owl, as if he hadn't been expecting it.

 

[mtzGr]

I really liked all the different opinions here. However, I tried to make it very clear that I did understand that aSoIaF was about, that it was much larger than the Starks. But I do believe I was deceived into loving the books because of them, so that GRRM could destroy them and say "I'm unpredictable, I keep things real. From now on, things will be about Jon and Dany, because that is how life is". That was a very cheap shot for me. Really, any author can do that. There is a reason they don't.

I can't be the only one who was drawed to this series because of the Starks, and perceived them as the main characters. When GRRM killed Ned, Robb and Cat, the plot "Starks Vs. Lannister" was wasted, IN MY OPINION. And that ruined aSoIaF FOR ME.

Again, if you still care about the rest of the series, I envy you. I really wanted to still be in love with it. At this point, it seems to me that GRRM just wants to tell what happened in Westeros as a documentary, describing realistic historic events. I think he could have had a GREAT STORY if he kept gave the Starks some sort of satisfaction. Now, I'll just wait a few years to ask someone how Dany conquered Westeros back and how Jon Snow restored order in the north. And I truly won't care at all who lived and who died.

I really can't sympathize for any of the things you think GRRM robbed you off, or agree with any of the conclusions you are drawing about the story. Obviously we all have our own opinions, so if that is how you feel there really is no point in arguing, because I doubt anyone's going to change your mind if they haven't already.

 

[Clansman]

I really can't sympathize for any of the things you think GRRM robbed you off, or agree with any of the conclusions you are drawing about the story. Obviously we all have our own opinions, so if that is how you feel there really is no point in arguing, because I doubt anyone's going to change your mind if they haven't already.

Again, we are here to discuss the books, not to simply dismiss someone's opinion because we don't like it. If there is no point in arguing or debating, then don't bother to say so. The OP is making an interesting point, and one that 5 pages of posts indicate is important. If a person wants to be a GRRM fanboy, this is not a forum that will let you do so without a cost. GRRM is a brilliant writer, but like the rest of the human race, he has his faults, and they inevitably come out in his writing. ASoIaF is not perfect.

I can sympathize with the OP, and this from an avid fan of this series since I first saw A Game of Thrones on the shelf when it was first released in the late 1990s. I also liked U2 when they released "Boy". Kidding.

The OP (with an almost impossible username, jaomadeira1000?), is upset at the manner in which the Stark v. Lannister storyline was ended so abruptly. The argument is, as far as I understand it, that a lot more mileage could have been made from that dispute, but The Red Wedding made that impossible, destroying that story arc. Could the story have been better had TRW not happened? Truthfully, we'll never know.

I do remember feeling, as the Imp posted above, like Gregor Clegane had punched his mailed fist into my stomach (great metaphor, Imp). I also think that the Stark/Lannister conflict could have been explored at length. However, that is something of a red herring, and perhaps there is some fan fic out there that speculates on what would have happened had the Stark host not been massacred at the Twins.

However, I also encourage the OP to continue to read the series. The Starks are not done, and neither are the Lannisters. I would not be surprised to see an accounting before the end (Arya Underfoot, anyone?)

 

[mtzGr]

Again, we are here to discuss the books, not to simply dismiss someone's opinion because we don't like it. If there is no point in arguing or debating, then don't bother to say so. The OP is making an interesting point, and one that 5 pages of posts indicate is important. If a person wants to be a GRRM fanboy, this is not a forum that will let you do so without a cost. GRRM is a brilliant writer, but like the rest of the human race, he has his faults, and they inevitably come out in his writing. ASoIaF is not perfect.

Actually it is the OP that is dismissing everyone else's opinion. He/she is talking past people, which is what prompted the remark. Putting "I really liked all the different opinions here," and then restating your opinion for the fourth time without considering any of them is not a discussion.

Everyone else is enjoying the discussion however, and I don't mean to spoil it.

Could the story have been better had TRW not happened? Truthfully, we'll never know.

I agree that there is never any way to know such a thing, but I don't think the book would have been as good, or as epic, without it. I remember introducing friends to the series, and once they got to that part their minds would be blown, as mine was, and they'd be overcome with emotion, and we'd talk about it with excitement and the conversations would be incredibly animated. There are certain parts of the story that are more memorable than others, naturally, and the TRW is certainly up there.

Personally I was never attached to Robb all that much, and that might be due to the fact that he wasn't as developed as the other POV characters. I always considered Jon to be more of Ned's son than Robb was, R+L=J notwithstanding. I also never thought the fate of Westeros and the Lannisters would be decided by him winning the war, and I've always seen Arya (and Cat) as the dispenser of vengeance for the Starks.

 

[Ursa major]

Whatever people think the the OP said in his most recent post (post#62), I don't think he was dismissing others' views, just disagreeing with them, because he thought the story went awry from his point of view. As far as I can see, his criticisms are directed entirely at the books (and their author for the way he's written the books). If people are going to take that as a personal matter - which it isn't - then I think they ought to look to themselves for the reason why.



* Puts on his supermoderator's hat. *

And on that point, I want to see no more playing of the man, not the ball in this thread. Even if you think that there's been an ad hominem attack, veiled or otherwise, you must not respond in kind. Doing so will bring the closing of this thread one step closer.

 

[The Imp]

Whatever people think the the OP said in his most recent post (post#62), I don't think he was dismissing others' views, just disagreeing with them, because he thought the story went awry from his point of view. As far as I can see, his criticisms are directed entirely at the books (and their author for the way he's written the books). If people are going to take that as a personal matter - which it isn't - then I think they ought to look to themselves for the reason why.



* Puts on his supermoderator's hat. *

And on that point, I want to see no more playing of the man, not the ball in this thread. Even if you think that there's been an ad hominem attack, veiled or otherwise, you must not respond in kind. Doing so will bring the closing of this thread one step closer.

I agree, but I'll ask again that while you have that hat on you change the thread so it doesn't spoil the books for entirely new readers. As of right now I will not invite any of my firends who are starting the series to come to this forum because of this thread title. It's not going to hurt the ability to talk about the issue if the title is changed, maybe shortened by just omitting the words "by killing too many good characters" and then adding a spoilers tag? IMO new readers should get zero information about the books, and knowing that GRRM kills off a lot of good characters gives a lot of information, as the reader is now expecting multiple deaths. It's not a stretch to think that someone could anticipate joffrey giving the order to kill Ned based on the ittle of this thread.

Thanks Bear

 

[mtzGr]

* Puts on his supermoderator's hat. *

And on that point, I want to see no more playing of the man, not the ball in this thread. Even if you think that there's been an ad hominem attack, veiled or otherwise, you must not respond in kind. Doing so will bring the closing of this thread one step closer.

To be fair, I wasn't trying to undermine his argument.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I'm sorry, I don't get the spoiler issue of the thread. Anyone watching the series, or reviews of the tv series, or the first book knows that GRRM isn't afraid of killing off characters, good or otherwise. Provided it doesn't say he killed off too many Starks and Lannisters at a certain nuptial event, is it really giving anything away?
I think that after a certain time it becomes impossible with a popular book for a new reader NOT to know something of what happened, and GRRM is getting to that point. It's like forbidding anyone to know that Strider is Arragorn, is the lost king... (apologies to anyone who didn't know that, btw)

 

[mtzGr]

It's like forbidding anyone to know that Strider is Arragorn, is the lost king... (apologies to anyone who didn't know that, btw)

WHAT THE HELL MAN1?!!?