GRRM ruined a song of ice and fire by killing too many good characters

[The Imp]

I'm sorry, I don't get the spoiler issue of the thread. Anyone watching the series, or reviews of the tv series, or the first book knows that GRRM isn't afraid of killing off characters, good or otherwise. Provided it doesn't say he killed off too many Starks and Lannisters at a certain nuptial event, is it really giving anything away?
I think that after a certain time it becomes impossible with a popular book for a new reader NOT to know something of what happened, and GRRM is getting to that point. It's like forbidding anyone to know that Strider is Arragorn, is the lost king... (apologies to anyone who didn't know that, btw)

How about people completely new to the series? I have a good firend who is not watching the HBO show and is about to start aGoT because she is getting it from me as a birthday present. My niece's fiance just started the books and hasn't watched the show.

It has been customary on this forum that thread titles NOT contain spoilers, and my definition of a spoiler is leaking any information that a reader (or watcher) shouldn't have. The title of this thread gives a "virgin" reader way more information than they need, and since it's on the front page, new members will likely see it before they can find the non-spoiler threads.

It may be impossible to avoid spoilers if one doesn't live in a cabin in the woods, or in a cave in tibet, but that doesn't mean that we as forum member don\t have the responsibility to keep this little corner of the internet as spoiler free as possible.

 

[The Judge]

Changing titles of threads causes some difficulty with linking, among other technical issues. As a result, Brian has asked the mods to change established titles only when absolutely necessary. It has been decided that this is not an absolutely necessary case and, accordingly, the title is staying as it is.

We are sorry if this means that members feel unable to recommend the Chrons to their friends and family, but no doubt as and when those who are at present starting the books have come across sufficient dead bodies for this not to be any kind of spoiler, they will feel able to come here and discuss the deaths with everyone else.

 

[Marvin]

When I read TRW, first it wowed me (WTF - let me read that again type of thing) then I felt anger - this is getting annoying as much as anything, I've spent ages getting to know these guys!

Then I thought, hang on, the series is called A Song of Ice and Fire - of course it's gonna be bigger than the Starks! Time to move on, the series isn't called The life and times of the Starks.

 

[No One]

George Lucas kills Luke, Leia, Chewbacca, Han Solo and R2D2, and the Death Star has destroyed every world populated with a likeable race, and the Rebel Alliance is over.

I'd just like to add that that sounds good to me.

 

[Brian G Turner]

It may be impossible to avoid spoilers if one doesn't live in a cabin in the woods, or in a cave in tibet, but that doesn't mean that we as forum member don\t have the responsibility to keep this little corner of the internet as spoiler free as possible.

Changing forum titles can cause all sorts of issues, not least that it can mis-direct on the forums itself, and bugger up email notifications sent before the title change - so best not done unless absolutely necessary.

I looked at this issue when you first raised it, but all the title says is that someone thinks that GRRM kills too many good characters. I don't think that's much of a spoiler, as it doesn't indicate much in terms of what characters may or may not be dying, and some degree of mortality is to be expected in much of the fantasy genre.

However, I really wouldn't recommend *anyone* who hasn't read the books to read anything on this board - most every thread is an advanced discussion of plot elements through the series and will inevitably contain spoilers one way or another. That's why we have a separate section dedicated to following the TV series.

As for the OP complaints - well, thank goodness there is a huge variety of fantasy fiction out there. Each has a different flavour, so even if a person dislikes one flavour, no doubt they will enjoy a different one.

While various criticisms have been levelled at the ASoIaF series, frankly I don't think any writer is free of criticism one way or another. I suspect that for most readers, while they enjoy many different flavours to different degrees, there is probably no such thing as a perfect flavour.

 

[The Imp]

Changing forum titles can cause all sorts of issues, not least that it can mis-direct on the forums itself, and bugger up email notifications sent before the title change - so best not done unless absolutely necessary.

I looked at this issue when you first raised it, but all the title says is that someone thinks that GRRM kills too many good characters. I don't think that's much of a spoiler, as it doesn't indicate much in terms of what characters may or may not be dying, and some degree of mortality is to be expected in much of the fantasy genre.

However, I really wouldn't recommend *anyone* who hasn't read the books to read anything on this board - most every thread is an advanced discussion of plot elements through the series and will inevitably contain spoilers one way or another. That's why we have a separate section dedicated to following the TV series.

As for the OP complaints - well, thank goodness there is a huge variety of fantasy fiction out there. Each has a different flavour, so even if a person dislikes one flavour, no doubt they will enjoy a different one.

While various criticisms have been levelled at the ASoIaF series, frankly I don't think any writer is free of criticism one way or another. I suspect that for most readers, while they enjoy many different flavours to different degrees, there is probably no such thing as a perfect flavour.

Thank you Brian and Judge for at least looking into it Maybe I'm be overly protective of noobs

 

[Boaz]

Spoiler Warning!!! Thomas Covenant, The Chronicles of Narnia, Samwise Gamgee... and... and... Boaz' teenage love life. Caveat emptor!

joao, your opinion of Dany seems to be mine of Rand al'Thor... he gets everything for free and remains one-dimensional... if you ever read ADWD, I'd love to hear your opinions of Dany. It is my opinion that the worst thing she ever did was exile Jorah. Oh... before I forget, Sam is the most heroic of all the heroes in The Lord of the Rings. Almost everyone in the story is a hero, great or small. There are only a few non-heroic, non-villainous characters.... Butterbur, Ioreth, and Daddy Twofoot. Heroes abound... Aragorn, Gandalf, Faramir, Legolas, Glorfindel, Imrahil, Eomer, Eowyn, Frodo, Bilbo, Merry, Pippin, Farmer Cotton, Tom Bombadil, Goldberry, Elladan, Elrohir, Halbarad, Hama, Elfhelm, Galadriel, Beregond, Bergil, Gimli, Gwaihir, Landroval, Meneldor, Treebeard, Quickbeam, Arwen, Forlong the Fat, Derufin, Duilin, Erkenbrand, Gamling, Theodred, and Theoden. And of that group, none was less prepared than Sam. He was the poorest, the least educated, the least physically gifted, the least wordly, and the least intelligent, except maybe for Gamling. Yet he was the one who stayed with Frodo and saved the quest and countless lives by his determination when all the other heroes and mighty men of Middle-earth never joined up, died, quit, or abandoned Frodo. Sam is Neo's residual self image.

Imp, let me reiterate my offer to buy you a beer (or six) next time you are in Denver.

biodroid, keep reading I want to hear your opinions on every book. Even though I'm from Kansas, I'm not a fanboy of the farm boys either.

Clanny, I second your appeal to joao to continue onward. In traditional five act Shakespearean plays, the protagonists always seem sure to die in the third act... but somehow (I don't know, it's a mystery) the villains are defeated. GRRM has promised nothing for the start or the middle, but he has promised that the ending will be bitterweet... not bitter, but bittersweet... so there will be some good.

mtzGr, good post. I agree with your comments on becoming hooked on the series and your feelings towards Robb.

Now as to the general discussion of what constitutes an interesting story... I read Eragon. It was the launching pad for two of my friends to begin to read fantasy. It fired their imaginations and I think it helped fill the void left by the demise of Western movies. Westerns used to be THE American fantasy. Even in the silent film era, Westerns took us to another place and time with damsels in distress, evil overlords, and men of honor. Westerns have given way to contemporary cops and slick 3D effects. The problem is that we are not transported by the Transformers to a different time, nor by Iron Man to a different place. Fantasy literature does take us to another place and time... with the damsels, overlords, and knights.

Before I go further, would any of you Brits claim the Western as your fantasy? Or has it always been Beowulf and Arthurian legend, with some Robin Hood and Rob Roy thrown in?

Eragon (which I read at age forty-three), in my opinion is an adequate introduction for a prepubescent boy, but not nearly as good as Narnia or The Hobbit. Eragon has adventure, travel, foreign lands, elves, dragons, magic, and most of everything we've come to know as stock material for fantasy... including using the letters Z and X in half the characters names to make them feel fantastic.

At thirteen years of age, I knew the vast differences between an adequate story like The Sword of Shanarra and a masterpiece like The Lord of the Rings. I know it's art... so the beauty will be in the eye of the beholder, but the disparity of craftmanship between Tolkien and Brooks blows my mind.

Now, at age forty-five, I am not even looking for stories in the style or theme of Tolkien. I will always cherish Middle-earth as a first love... Narnia was my first crush. Twenty-five years ago, I appreciated the movement away from the mythological inspired works of Tolkien to the more realistic style story telling of Feist and Hickman and Weis. Now I find myself enthralled with Westeros.

Narnia's themes were of growing up, honesty, and learning who I am. Middle-earth's themes were of commitment, perseverance, and sacrifice. Westeros' themes are of social justice, discernment, Machiavellian politics, and the ends justifying the means.

Mayhaps (the trick is to get them to not notice the 'mayhaps'), it's just that I'm older that I can read between the lines or that I have enough life experience and so apply the characters' motivations to my own life. Mayhaps, I may some day look back and think, "I was only forty-five! I knew nothing about the real purpose of life. I knew nothing about sacrifice, love, and commitment. This new fantasy series by Kiwibird really get to the heart of the matter."

I read lots of fantasy literature when I was growing up. I bet there are literally five or six dozen books that I've completely forgotten... and I don't just mean the titles or the characters' names... I mean the characters and plots in their entireties. (Is entireties a word?) But one series sticks out... the Thomas Covenant stories. My point is that I believe I was too young to know what I was reading.

I hated Thomas. Why did I keep reading? I dunno. I guess that quitting did not occur to me... at least until I finished the first three books (the fourth had just been published). I do know that I did not understand what motivated a grown man to rape a teenage girl... I still don't know that one exactly, but I do understand self-loathing, regret, physical limitations, and the burden of being responsible for the safety of many people.

The only other person I knew that knew about Thomas Covenant was my girlfriend's father. I was a fifteen year old student and he was probably about thirty-eight and the vice-president of a local college. In my estimation, he was a real scholar. I don't remember the exact terms of our discussions, but I know that I could not relate to why he loved the series. He liked Thomas, while I liked Hile Troy, the general. I was just too young. I had not experienced major ethical crises or psychological depression.

I still liked Aragorn... I did not even yet know that Sam was the hero.

I do remember that he quit talking literature with me when he realized that his daughter and I were interested in more than just holding hands.

I'm thinking of going back and rereading the The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant and see what I missed.

 

[The Imp]

I really liked all the different opinions here. However, I tried to make it very clear that I did understand that aSoIaF was about, that it was much larger than the Starks. But I do believe I was deceived into loving the books because of them, so that GRRM could destroy them and say "I'm unpredictable, I keep things real. From now on, things will be about Jon and Dany, because that is how life is". That was a very cheap shot for me. Really, any author can do that. There is a reason they don't.

Actually, very few authors have the skill to kill off major characters because doing so requires having such a strong story that things can move on without them. It sounds as if GRRM wrote well enough to have you form an emotional attachment to certain characters and yhou're angry that he then took them away from you. Perhaps you're gireving? Give yourself so time to get over your loss. You may find that you like the rest of the series. After all, there are still 4.5 Starks remaining after TRW.

I can't be the only one who was drawed to this series because of the Starks, and perceived them as the main characters. When GRRM killed Ned, Robb and Cat, the plot "Starks Vs. Lannister" was wasted, IN MY OPINION. And that ruined aSoIaF FOR ME.

I was drawn into the series because of the amazing writing and becuase of ALL of the charcters, not just the "good guys". I love the complexity of the characters, and the fact that all of them are flawed in one way or another. I love GRRM's attention to detailand his ability to juggle multiple plots in the "air" and not drop any of them. I love the unpredictability that at the same time is predictable. if you were to go back and read the series again, you'd find that TRW was foreshadowed, and is not nearly as shocking as it appeared to be on first read. Also, there are still Starks and there are still Lannisters, just not as many as when the series started. Would you rather have had a predictable and formulaic plot where "good" triumphs over "evil". Would the series have been less "ruined" for you if Robb had gone on to win every battle and ultimately sit the iron throne? What would YOU have done to make the series better?

Again, if you still care about the rest of the series, I envy you. I really wanted to still be in love with it. At this point, it seems to me that GRRM just wants to tell what happened in Westeros as a documentary, describing realistic historic events. I think he could have had a GREAT STORY if he kept gave the Starks some sort of satisfaction. Now, I'll just wait a few years to ask someone how Dany conquered Westeros back and how Jon Snow restored order in the north. And I truly won't care at all who lived and who died.

He has a great story, it's just not the story that you want.
Just as an FYI, aSoS got 5 star reviews from 735 out of 999 peeople that rated it, 4 stars from 107 and 3 stars from 70. You're not alone but you're in the minority.

P.s.: someone asked if I truly thought Dany's victories were predictable, specially in Meereen, I think. My answer is yes, and that makes me even more positive that GRRM killing spree is so artificial. I mean, I did not always see how, but I know Dany will always win. C'mon, she needs warriors, she gets a few Dothraki. She needs money, people pay to see her dragons, but no one tries to steal them. She needs more money and ships, Illirio sends some. She needs an army, the brilliant slavers sell all their unsullied robots to be reprogramed and keep none to defend themselves. Oh, and she also gets dragons. Call all that realistic. GRRM follows exactaly the same formula some have said he brilliantly broke, but with Dany. He broke the formula with the Starks? Yes. Stupidly. But he follows it to the letter with Dany.

I'm not going to even attempt to specifially answer this as it sounds as if you're just ranting at this point. I'll just say it's fiction, and the author wrote it as he saw fit. I'll ask you this though, as I did earlier. What would YOU have done differently?

 

[dragomort]

There's plenty to not like with regard to personal preference, but it's expertly crafted in my opinion.

While Dany's story does follow a certain line, so does everyone in actual* and imagined history, otherwise you're looking for chaos. Seriously, if it was actually cookie-cutter formulaic you'd have a completely different story or else you're reading some weird formulas. Insofar as operating at the fringe of those formulas to retain their force on the story while simultaneously subverting them I find Martin to be superb.

*i.e. -I don't know how WW2 ends, but I know the Nazi's are going to lose! Oh, let me guess, all the good guys band together to defeat the villain in the end?
-I don't need to read the entire history of Rome. I know it rose and fell, so trite and done before!
-etc

The formulas generally aren't the problem, as such, you simply dislike something in the style or story itself. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but the formulas themselves are so wide and varied that you can find one to match anything real or imagined. I don't think you can really call foul on just that unless it comes off as lazy story telling, which is something I just don't see in this series. And if you think a character is having it too story-book-by-the-numbers easy that's had virtually no family or friends since birth, been sold for an army, had her only family killed in front of her, sacrificed her unborn child for her husband only to lose both due to earlier compassion, been sold by her only friend for hopes of a home she would have granted him in time, sold herself to a second person only to have him try to kill her and her 'children' and the peace it was to bring burn to ashes....well, you might want to rethink that analysis.

 

[Eulalia]

It is known, dragomort!

And, you know, is anyone really sure if Dany is going to survive, sit the iron throne, vanquish the Others, wed and live happily ever after?

Then, I believe GRRM thows in a touch of Elizabeth R in Dany's speech, actions, love interests, and thoughts. The Armada is coming...

And, just perhaps, someone does try to steal dragons.

 

[The Imp]

It is known, dragomort!

And, you know, is anyone really sure if Dany is going to survive, sit the iron throne, vanquish the Others, wed and live happily ever after?

Then, I believe GRRM thows in a touch of Elizabeth R in Dany's speech, actions, love interests, and thoughts. The Armada is coming...

And, just perhaps, someone does try to steal dragons.

I don't think it's a given at all that Dany sits the Iron Throne. We've certainly been led to beleive that, even encouraged to, but ehre are things that can go wrong, even with dragons. The STarks being able to warg may come into play here. How do you kidnap a dragon? You warg into it

 

[juleska]

I don't think it's a given at all that Dany sits the Iron Throne. We've certainly been led to beleive that, even encouraged to, but ehre are things that can go wrong, even with dragons. The STarks being able to warg may come into play here. How do you kidnap a dragon? You warg into it

All that nonsense in Mereen leads me to believe she will, under the right circumstances, gladly relinquish the responsibility of the throne. Particularly if the occupant of the throne is her husband. King Snow has a nice ring to it.

 

[mtzGr]

All that nonsense in Mereen leads me to believe she will, under the right circumstances, gladly relinquish the responsibility of the throne. Particularly if the occupant of the throne is her husband. King Snow has a nice ring to it.

Something about Tyrion ultimately becoming king is so delicious to me.

 

[juleska]

I would totally support that outcome as well!

 

[Rolynd]

I feel sorry for the OP. I felt exactly the same way after storm of swords in fact I may see if I can access my post history?? Don't know if you can or not because all though I mainly lurk on here after TRW I felt compelled to post a similar rant! Imp I think you had it right when you suggested the OP is grieving - it is hard when things are so bleak.

If you are still reading this OP then I think the best thing I can say is to keep going, you won't regret it. You may just need to harden your heart a little! The lannisters do not have things all their own way but I'm sensing that you haven't actually finished ASOS as yet. If you have then forgive me for presuming but if not you need to get it finished!

What I found most incredible, when I summoned up the courage to carry on with the books, was that I actually ended up FEELING SORRY for Cersei. How the blue blazes did GRRM manage to achieve that?? I would gladly have given her to an entire Khalesaar to use and abuse at one point. I felt disgusted with myself by the end of ADWD!

I guess what I'm trying to say is forget your preconceptions (dont get defensive but its clear you have them just as I did) and take my word for it that there are a few twists and turns to go which may cheer you up.

And here is the post I mentioned! Definite similarities to the OP, but I'm glad I have carried on.

I thought it was about time I tried GRRM as I read a lot of fantasy and everyone kept recommending him. I have started song of Ice and Fire seriesnow and am about 2/3 through storm of swords.

I think his writing is great and the story (or each of the seperate stories rather) race along.

Thing is though, I am beginning to feel that this series is a bit bleak for me. Don't get me wrong, I love a bit of realism, and I likethatyou don't feel any of the main protaganists are safe. Kill off a main character that I really likeby all means, I can take it. But surely this has to be tempered with the evildoers being punished for their crimes? I want a bit of revenge!

I need to feel likeI'm going to geta boostof elation at the end of a book I read when the good triumph. I realise this is a series and so the proper ending cannot come yet but give me some scraps at least! At the moment I just feel like I'm reading a litany of bad news, one thing after the other and it's...disheartening.

Is it going to pick up any time soon? Am I going to get any reward for putting myself through some really depressing times with these characters!? I don't think I can wait until the last chapterof thelast book of the series. I need something to keep me going.

 

[The Imp]

I feel sorry for the OP. I felt exactly the same way after storm of swords in fact I may see if I can access my post history?? Don't know if you can or not because all though I mainly lurk on here after TRW I felt compelled to post a similar rant! Imp I think you had it right when you suggested the OP is grieving - it is hard when things are so bleak.

If you are still reading this OP then I think the best thing I can say is to keep going, you won't regret it. You may just need to harden your heart a little! The lannisters do not have things all their own way but I'm sensing that you haven't actually finished ASOS as yet. If you have then forgive me for presuming but if not you need to get it finished!

What I found most incredible, when I summoned up the courage to carry on with the books, was that I actually ended up FEELING SORRY for Cersei. How the blue blazes did GRRM manage to achieve that?? I would gladly have given her to an entire Khalesaar to use and abuse at one point. I felt disgusted with myself by the end of ADWD!

I guess what I'm trying to say is forget your preconceptions (dont get defensive but its clear you have them just as I did) and take my word for it that there are a few twists and turns to go which may cheer you up.

And here is the post I mentioned! Definite similarities to the OP, but I'm glad I have carried on.

Wonderful post. I'm glad you stuck with it

SPOILER GOING BEYOND aSoS TO FOLLOW




Any author that can have me starting out hating characters such as Jaime Lannister and then have him become one of my favorites, or have me feeling sorry for Cersei and Theon when it was once my wish that both of them die slow and miserable deaths, that particular author is IMO a genius.

Having said that, perhaps the OP needs things in more black and white terms, and isn't comfortable with characters that are in various shades of grey. That wouldn't make him/her a bad person

 

[Boaz]

Spoiler Alert for Malazan, Wheel of Time, Mistwraith, and Dragonbone Chair.

dragomort and Rolynd, Welcome. I don't recall seeing you both here before, but I'm not known for my powers of observation. Good posts, both of you.

joao, I've been thinking back over the last few years and I recall a few epic series that I started and did not finish. Four, immediately, come to mind... Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, Janny Wurts' The Wars of Light and Shadow, Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen, and Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. These series all have loyal fans. All are epic in scope. Each are, or could be, considered the definitive works of their respective authors. Yet, I did not finish any of them. Why?

[Three paragraphs of explanation of Malazan, critique of MST, and denunciation of Wheel of Time deleted because it's all off topic. So I'll just get to the point.]

I quit Wurts' TWOLAS because I disagreed with her story... and I think that's what you feel towards GRRM. Miss Wurts has a much better command of the english language than I do. She intrigued me with the opening of the story. She got me to connect with her characters. Then she did not take the story in the direction that I felt it should have gone. I don't remember any of the characters' names, except Lysaer. He was to be Aragorn, but she turned him into the Witch King... and I did not like it. I thought her develpment of Lysaer was way too heavy handed. Lysaer should have been tempted into forsaking his honor and not bewitched. If I remember correctly, Clansman (a prolific poster on the Chrons) urged me to give the second book in the series a serious look. And I never did. Are all the fans of The Wars of Light and Shadow just plain wrong while I am right? Mayhaps I should press on with the story... Mahaps Aragorn will come back... I dunno.

 

[sin]

Spoiler Warning!!! Thomas Covenant, The Chronicles of Narnia, Samwise Gamgee... and... and... Boaz' teenage love life. Caveat emptor!

I do know that I did not understand what motivated a grown man to rape a teenage girl... I still don't know that one exactly, but I do understand self-loathing, regret, physical limitations, and the burden of being responsible for the safety of many people.

~~~SPOILERS~~~

Just a quick one before aSoIaF...

He had leprosy, which causes the extremities to go numb. Basically, he had no feeling in his penis for 10 years, and when he hit the Land his leprosy was magically cured and suddenly it worked again. She made it obvious to him that she was very attracted to him and he lost control and raped her. The tragedy (apart from the rape itself, obviously) is that she would have given herself willingly to him if he had only asked, but he didn't. He raped her.

Remember, he had been shunned by absolutely everyone in the "real world" for 10 years, so he already hated himself, and this just made himself loathe himself more. With a passion. (Which is kind of the point - is he really so different from Lord Foul? What is the nature of evil? Was Lord Foul always evil, or did his hatred and contempt for stupid selfish mortals slowly consume him?)

 

[Boaz]

sin, Welcome. Thanks for the info.

The Land of Viagra... please consult a virgin if you experience an erection longer than four hours.

It's been over thirty years since I read about Thomas. I did not have enough life experience to sympathize with terminal and incurable illness, self-hatred, loss of passion, life outside society, etc. I was old enough to read the words, but way too young to understand the themes. I really need to take another look at that story.

 

[sin]

aSoIaF

Um, if you're reading through the books as fast as you can, "skimming" and and treating them like they're the latest popcorn summer blockbuster movie you're kind of missing the point. The beauty of GRRM's writing is not what he says, it's what he doesn't say. You have to work it out for yourself. His work is incredibly intricate, if you're not seriously thinking about it then you're ripping yourself off. Treat it like literature, rather than like a comic book.

I mean, I like the TV series, but it is very shallow compared to the books.

The TV show makes a lot of stuff explicit, so you don't really have to work it out for yourself, but GRRM's writing is littered with hints and implied stuff. If you're only reading superficially, and not thinking about it, you're missing most of the story.

~~~SPOILERS~~~

Spoiler

For example, GRRM never explicitly states and Renly and Loras are lovers - he just leaves hints, often several hundred pages apart, and they are always offhand, of no import.

eg.

Loras joining Renly's Kingsguard "solves the problem of arranging a marriage for him" - what? He was the most glamorous and handsome Knight in the realm, and he came from one of the wealthiest families. All the highborn girls wanted him so they could have made any match for him they wanted. That family must be seriously picky...

Why does Loras go and throw his life away in the assault on Dragonstone? How stupid is that? Is he that thirsty for glory?

Margaery's a virgin so she is free to marry Joffrey? How is that possible? She was married to Renly for 2 weeks - surely enough time to consummate the marriage? She must be lying...

Oh wait! She is still a virgin, and Loras only threw his life away after Renly was killed - Loras and Renly must have been lovers!

PS: I only used this example because everyone already knows about L&R due to the TV show. Spoiler tags are there because I don't know if the TV series has shown Margaery/Joffrey etc.

I won't detail any of the other examples because I know some people who haven't read the books won't be able to help themselves when they see spoiler tags