Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) (WITH SPOILERS!)

[SilentRoamer]

No criticism on my part at all, I believe Obi-Wan's point of view is perfectly valid, in hindsight. But I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of an audience member at the time, who would just discover that Luke's father was very much alive in ESB. Would that audience member feel like Lucas was contradicting himself? After all, aren't we supposed to take whatever heroes in movies say at face value?

There are still many options available to whoever is writing the script of Episode IX.

Kylo Ren might have lied.
Kylo Ren might have said the truth.
Kylo Ren might have said an incomplete truth.

We'll see...

But I know for a fact that I would be disappointed if Rey turned out to be a Skywalker. I think we've all earned something more interesting than the usual "Everybody's a Skywalker" shtick.

You are completely free to criticize or not and I may disagree, or not! We can be on opposite sides of an opinion and still see truth from another perspective.

Personally I would like the revelation that Rey is in fact a Skywalker, I feel it would be more logically consistent with what we have seen in the series so far, especially in the connection between Rey and Ren which mirrors that between Luke and Leia. I feel it would also be more consistent with regards to the themes of generational struggle.

However, that being said, a really powerful non Skywalker bloodline would be very interesting, although it does seem that Jedi potential can be Hereditary although it can also spontaneously arrive a la Virgin Conception.

Anyways I think the whole idea of the question is something interesting and I was totally convinced when Ren was telling here "you can the feel the answer who are you" that Rey was going to reply "your sister", I was convinced!

Definitely an interesting topic and I think even more open ended given the events of TLJ.

 

[The Crawling Chaos]

If Rey had to be related to a character from the original films, my favourite guess would be Palpatine. She could also be a sick experiment from him, in an attempt to create the ultimate Force user when Anakin turned out to be disappointingly limited after sustaining his injuries. Definitely not what I want to see, but a compromise I would be willing to accept.

But overall, and even though it is too late to rewrite the entire saga and the sad notion of midichlorians, I miss the feelings I had watching ANH as a kid and thinking anybody could just decide to become a Jedi. Sure, not everybody seemed equal before the Force (It "ran strong" in the Skywalker family, therefore not as strong in others), but at least it felt like any farm boy or girl could decide to drop everything and leave on an adventure with the Force at their side.

I believe that's what Johnson attempted in TLJ when he decided to end the movie on that boy who looks up at the stars and displays some Force sensitivity - that sense of awe and adventure, where everyone is welcome, not just the Skywalkers.

Personally I would like the revelation that Rey is in fact a Skywalker, I feel it would be more logically consistent with what we have seen in the series so far, especially in the connection between Rey and Ren which mirrors that between Luke and Leia. I feel it would also be more consistent with regards to the themes of generational struggle.

I don't know if you ever read the EU before it was obliterated by Disney, but I remember reading the Legacy of the Force series, set 30 years after Return of the Jedi. The overall story was about Han and Leia's son -Jacen- descent to the Dark Side of the Force and his twin sister -Jaina- rising against him as "The Sword of the Jedi" to end his reign of terror.

The 9 books were uneven but I remember enjoying them as a whole, and the dynamic between Jacen and Jaina especially worked just as well as that between Kylo Ren and Rey in the new films. I think their relationship is definitely the standout subplot of this new trilogy.

I think both the Legacy of the Force and Dark Empire contain many elements that Disney has recycled in Episodes VII and VIII, so much so that I wonder why they decided to erase these stories from the canon at all. And as far as I'm concerned, they made for far more compelling stories than what we have been offered by Kathleen Kennedy and the JJ Abrams / Rian Johnson duo... So far.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I would be surprised if Rey isn't Rens sister and daughter to Han and Leia

Totally agree. The film pretty much suggested this by Luke-Leia also being able to reach each other across space. Snoke took the credit, but he may have being manipulative (gasp!).

While Kylo Ren claimed Rey's parent's were nobody special, we were also shown that both Kylo and Rey held incomplete views that when taken together form a more complex whole - for example, Rey telling Kylo he would turn against Snoke, which was proven true - but absolutely not the whole story.

Personally, I wouldn't be disappointed if there's not much to Rey's parentage - but on the issue of Checkov's gun, it seemed missing when it came to Leia actively using the force and that really jarred because of it.

 

[The Crawling Chaos]

but on the issue of Checkov's gun, it seemed missing when it came to Leia actively using the force and that really jarred because of it.

My issue with this scene is that if Leia has become such a powerful Force user, then surely it makes no sense for her ghost to be absent in the next one. So will they explain Carrie Fisher's absence in IX by saying Leia is not dead but has disappeared instead? I don't know how they will deal with it, and of course they couldn't have known at the time that Carrie Fisher wouldn't come back, but I think they certainly missed a golden opportunity to give her a fitting on-screen end, with her body drifting away among the stars.

And another burning question I have: Does Kylo know Luke died after his projected form faded away on Krayt (Crait? Crate? Kreight?)?

Surely, if he didn't feel the death of his old mentor, his main priority in Episode IX will be to find Luke and make him pay the humiliation he suffered ("See you around, kid."). Is there any element at the end of The Last Jedi that indicates whether Kylo knows Luke just died?

 

[Culhwch]

I would be surprised if Rey isn't Rens sister and daughter to Han and Leia, I expect they are twins and that is a reason for their strong connection.

Well there's no chance of them being twins, since Kylo is ten years older than Rey. And I can't imagine how they could convincingly set it up for her to be a Skywalker or a Solo, given none of Han, Leia or Luke have ever shown any kind of acknowledgement of that being the case. That's a large part of why I'm hoping that the TLJ reveal is the actual truth.

However it could be as Snoke surmises and they are the counterbalanced powers of the Force made manifest as Anakin/Palpatine were. Either way is completely logical but if it is the latter then why all the fake clues and dead avnues to something that becomes a non issue.

I like this explanation better. And why the misdirects? Well, maybe they weren't sure which way they were going to go. Or maybe they were sure all along, and they thought doing it this way would be a shocking double-twist. Don't forget that JJ Abrams is the guy that denied Cumberbatch was Khan right up until the point that Cumberbatch was revealed as Khan. He's not the best at twists.

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

My issue with this scene is that if Leia has become such a powerful Force user, then surely it makes no sense for her ghost to be absent in the next one.

it's a lot easier to convincingly CGI a blue glowing ghost Leia than a real live one.

But also there are billions of dead Jedi and they don't appear every five minutes.

 

[The Crawling Chaos]

it's a lot easier to convincingly CGI a blue glowing ghost Leia than a real live one.

But also there are billions of dead Jedi and they don't appear every five minutes.

A deleted scene from Revenge of the Sith explains why: Qui-Gon was the first Jedi to discover that Jedi could retain their "identity" beyond death and through the Force, and he only told Yoda after the Jedi Order had been destroyed, at the very end of the film.

So the only Jedi aware of that technique are Qui-Gon, who never got as far as consolidating his Force Ghost and only intervened as a disembodied voice, Yoda, Obi-Wan and now Luke and Leia, presumably. It is unclear why Anakin was able to do it at the end of Return of the Jedi, but being the "son of the Force", I would be willing to accept that the Force just granted him access to Force-Heaven, and dismiss this continuity error on the screenwriter's part...

As for creating a CGI Force Ghost of Leia, I'm not sure. I dabbled in 3D modelling and animation in film school, and as far as I can tell it would be just as hard to sell a convincing CGI ghost of Carrie Fisher as it would a live one (with the added benefit that a CGI model could be made see-through very easily, the modelling, animation and texturing work would be virtually the same - and I wasn't sold on CGI Leia in Rogue One). But beyond the technicalities, I think the filmmakers would be too scared to even consider this idea in the first place, as a lot of people might find it somewhat irreverent and insensitive.

 

[Amelia Faulkner]

people might find it somewhat irreverent and insensitive.

IDK nobody seems to have been offended by all the assholes who abused her rushing to say how much her death impacted them *wipes away crocodile tears*.

 

[Phyrebrat]

Off to see it a third time today; taking the Aged P's.

pH

 

[janeoreilly]

I took my kids to see it on Christmas Eve - my 13yo daughter particularly enjoyed it and I for one was thrilled to see so many women on screen, not just young and showing a hollywood approved amount of skin, but of all ages, and in positions of power. I also can't remember the last time I saw a male character screw up the way Poe does in the opening scene and come out of it not made to look like a hero.

Rey's backstory worked for me, and I really hope they stick with it and there is no grand revelation. I know it's very Disney, but I like the idea that this isn't about being born into the right family, that anyone has a shot (I know Darth wasn't from the right family either, but these films are new from this generation of kids and I think this is a positive message for them).

 

[Phyrebrat]

Just back from the second viewing - I liked it even more, along with the narrative choices made.

Great film.

pH

 

[night_wrtr]

I plan on going again tomorrow. Excited to see it without my mind racing to figure out where the story was going.

 

[Lumens]

Hey, stop encouraging them, you two. They'll only make more of it!

 

[Overread]

So having just seen it a few thoughts

1) If I were Disney the next Starwars film I'd make is the Rise of the First Order Prequel. They seriously need to set the scene of the fall of the New Republic and hte Rise of the First Order much stronger than was conveyed in the first film of this new Triology.
It would also be a time to introduce Snokes story 0 at least his rise to power if not his background.

2) FREAKING HECK THAT WAS BEAUTIFUL. Less is more; there were no vast armies; no huge battles; no planet space stations and for all that this film was beautiful to watch!

3) A directors cut of a few scenes would be good (eg when when the cruiser hypersped into Snokes Flagship the two captured Rebels, once surrounded by a whole regiment, were suddenly the only ones alive. There were a few other scenes like this, but they are niggles rather than outright story breaking, in my view.

4) The story writing and atmosphere was fantastic. Yes the cute animals appearing twice and the riding to escape scene were cheesy as heck, but they felt a bit more 80s cheese than modern cheese. Also they were little things, it wasn't as film breaking as when they did JarJar.

5) Having, near the end, Luke and Yoda starting to be the face of the Force made the Force aspects feel much more story focused than in the previous film; you could see the strings being pulled now rather than in the first film where everything felt very, convenient.

6) Spy on the Cruiser - this should have been a story element and I suspect it was and got cut due to time. I say this beacuse it would explain why command didn't reveal their plan to escape the command ship; why they kept running and why their briefing ended with "ok everyone go do your jobs - no we are not having any plan to direct your jobs".

7) Did I mention that this was FREAKING BEAUTIFUL! eHeck the red salt planet felt EVER so early sci-fi - the kind of thing you'd see plastered in artwork on the front of a sci-fi novel.



Overall - BEST STARWARS SINCE ORIGINAL. And I'd say if they can follow this up with a another film along the same lines it could start to eclipse. There were painful bits, there were some convenient bits (the hacker), but overall it knit togeter the right way to let you accept those.

 

[Overread]

Oh one thing I forgot to note, one comment almost thrown away in this film was that more than one jedi-in-training escaped the blaze. If I recalled the film right and caught the moment right it would suggest that there could well be other sith ready in training or held in reserve somewhere else. Snoke was certainly not playing the "there's only two of us" angle as heavily as Palpatine did and since the concept of change of the religions of the past was a big part of this film it could well be that Snoke also didn't hold to the Sith "rules" either. That would at least leave several other potentials to swing the balance in the next film

I also liked the homage to Anakin at the end of the film. I SERIOUSLY hope they don't take it any further in the next film (ergo not another Anakin) but it was a very neat placement to show a hint of what could be in the future and, because of the history of Starwars, you know its not an impossible dream!

 

[Mouse]

Just got back from the cinema.

I for one was thrilled to see so many women on screen, not just young and showing a hollywood approved amount of skin, but of all ages, and in positions of power.

This, with freaking knobs on! I know the men can't understand, but I was sat there mentally dancing at the number of women on screen! So pleased. There was one scene where the only male on screen was Poe, and even the characters in the background were women. This never happens - I've seen countless films where you won't even see a woman in the background. Just awesome.

And...

I loved Rose. My fave new character. But how on Earth did she manage to get hold of her sister's necklace?! I spent the majority of the rest of the film wondering that (and also being distracted with how much Laura Dern looks like a lady I used to work with). I thought, first of all, that they just had matching ones (I also initially thought it was her wife she was mourning, but Star Wars isn't ready for that, I guess, so sisters is fine) but then Finn actually says 'It was her sister's' to Benicio Del Toro, so... How?

I also thought Leia used the force to get herself back into the ship after being blown out of it, then thought to myself... can she use the force? (Can't remember if that's been shown before. I presume so).

Tad too long, and I predicted what was about to happen before it happened in pretty much every instance, but I really enjoyed it. Poss my fave one so far.

 

[Overread]

Tad too long, and I predicted what was about to happen before it happened in pretty much every instance, but I really enjoyed it. Poss my fave one so far.

My view was that most scenes were predictable in a sense that you didn't get many "OMG Where the heck, why what is going on" but at the same time they threw in enough failures and mixups and such that, at least I, didn't guess every angle perfectly and when I was guessing it was mostly happening right before me. I felt like it was a good balance.

Also I second your view that Rose did really well. I also don't want to sound sexist when I say this, but I felt that she was beautiful in a "not your standard hollywood style". In fact I'd say she's more plain than many. I felt that was good realistic touch to the story. I also like how we end with a love-triangle forming which I figure is going to rise to be an interesting twist in the following film.

Leia was always marked as having Force abilities, it stands to reason that she likely didn't get much training from Luke as she likely was absorbed with running things and then Luke vanished before he could teach her much; and she likely didn't have the desire/hunger/drive to develop her Force skills further. Wasted potential which leaves her with raw power in there, but undeveloped and likely little desire to use it. Hence she uses it in a life-death situation, but doesn't have much overt use outside of a few instances.

 

[soulsinging]

I saw this last Weds so I've had some time to digest and reflect on my thoughts. Overall, I was underwhelmed when I walked away and think there were some big missed opportunities. For as much as TFA was slighted for recycling too much, I felt this one tried a little too hard to go the opposite direction. Rogue One was an excellent film and I loved how it brought a gritty edge to SW, but it seems a little out of place in the "main" trilogies. It makes me think of the way Z Snyder has ruined some DC heroes like Superman by making icons of hope and our best selves into glum, brooding affairs.

One of the things I loved best about TFA was the chemistry between the new characters, and the weight the old ones were carrying, and a lot of this felt bungled in TLJ:

• Finn and Rey barely see each other, and instead Finn winds up with an awkward budding potential romance with someone else, so that an ambiguous and previously unseen connection between Kylo and Ren can be explored?
• As a result, Finn winds up wasting the movie on an entirely unnecessary casino side plot
• Poe is also isolated, "learning" leadership by platitude at the hands of Leia and a general whose secrecy seems a mere plot device to teach Poe how to lose a battle/exercise patience
• Contrast this with ESB, where Leia and Han's adventures complement Luke's training. Han's dynamic with Luke drives ANH and his dynamic with Leia keeps ESB moving to that huge Vader-Luke showdown. Here, Rey's training with Luke is engaging, but Poe and Finn are separated and both essentially spinning their wheels in pointless efforts.
• The way Han and Leia fell back into old lives after tragedy was compelling in TFA, but diminishing here. Leia seemingly meets a fitting end for an old general in a way that has implications for Kylo and his conflict, only to have this reversed by Force magic. My only thinking here is that they envisioned a significant role for Leia wrt to Kylo in 9 that is now going to be tricky. Han's sacrifice meant something. I'm afraid Leia's resurrection won't.
• Along this line, it didn't make sense that Leia survives certain death with an amazing display of Force power, but Luke, Jedi Master, dies apparently as the result of a similar display of power. I'm fine with new powers being revealed, but these powers seemed more tied to plot needs than the character (the way Vader's Force choke, the Emperor's lightning, and Ben's Force ghost all seemed uniquely like powers those Jedi personalities would have). Leia never used her powers, but has quite a blunt force command of it when needed, and Luke was squeaky-clean and drew his power from seeing clearly into Vader's heart, yet here is a master manipulator in ways the Emperor would have LOVED.
• Luke was almost too gruff and dispirited. I like hermit Luke and it fits with the tradition established by Yoda and Ben as eccentric guide, but both of those had made peace with their failures and maintained some sense of humor about it, where Luke seems broken and bitter. It makes sense given his failure was deeply personal (his sister and best friend's child), but his redemption should have driven by that (ie. forgiveness from Leia/Han) not him burning some old Jedi books. Though Yoda tying it to his earlier tendency to live out of the moment was a nice touch.
• I once saw a critique that pointed out that when the originals came out, they appealed to Boomers then fighting the establishment (a stiff-necked conformist power). TFA cleverly updated this: what do those heroes do when their idealism fails to produce the just republic they envisioned, and even seems to drive their children (Kylo) to actively EMBRACE evil rather than just be seduced by it (school shooters instead of sell-outs)? On the flipside, the new heroes appealed to a millennial generation who felt deceived by their elders who seem to have given up the fight (Han, Luke). The Rashoman style approach to Luke/Kylo's relationship muddles this generational dynamic, and Luke's exile and return doesn't really satisfy. He is bitter, then he gets over it, but he doesn't really "join" the fight and it doesn't really seem like he's done much to prepare Rey for that fight either. I get no sense that she has learned anything from him or developed the kind of appreciation/respect for him that he clearly had for Yoda even as he cut short HIS training.

On the plus side, the main arc is still compelling and I want to see Rey and Kylo's confrontation/resolution as much as I wanted to see Luke/Vader's:

• Rey's arc was very interesting, and her nominal heritage is fine with me. Anakin was a nobody too, called by the Force to balance against an increasingly stodgy Jedi order. Now Rey is called by the Force to check the chaos that powerful bloodline has caused.
• Kylo Ren continues to surprise as a layered villain. The movie ends with me wondering if his assassination of Snoke was planned from the beginning and due to his mastery of the dark arts and manipulation, or a reflexive gasp of the good in him sticking up for someone he's again failing to convince himself he wants to kill.
• Rey and Luke's dynamic was satisfying, her earnestness and urgency are a nice update of Luke's starry-eyed naivete in the originals. The master-pupil scenes are fun, even if they don't really seem to lead anywhere.
• Laura Dern and Benicio Del Toro deliver as the sort of intriguing secondary characters that Boba Fett, Lando, Mon Mothma, Ackbar, etc did in the originals.

Overall, the movie just felt overstuffed. It was too long, and the new characters are all split up and sent on dull and ultimately pointless side quests rather than developing their chemistry further. As cool as the final battle was, it had a LOTR: ROTK style "add-on" feel, after what felt like a climax/resolution/plateau minutes before. Attempts to make those side plots relevant result in a lot of character "development" that feels too rushed and not well earned. It would have benefited from being more tightly focused on Rey/Luke and letting that thread breathe more, while letting Poe and Finn have a little more fun to balance out the weight of the Jedi legacy.

I've said that ESB stood out for NOT being a typical sequel, in that it managed to be dark and end on a cliffhanger, while still feeling self contained and moving at a lively pace. This feels more like a true middle chapter, where a lot of pieces are being put in place for the finale, resulting in it being both too long and too brief and ended without me feeling like much has changed from where TFA left off, despite the deaths of multiple key characters. I'm still very excited for Episode 9, but I feel like the shift in tone and breaking the mold that worked so well for Rogue One come off as trying too hard here. The movie winds up being spread a little too thin, though when the action set pieces work, it can really be spectacular.

 

[Brian G Turner]

how on Earth did she manage to get hold of her sister's necklace?

I presumed it was one of those where each person keeps one half.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I presumed it was one of those where each person keeps one half.

That's what I figured too.

I enjoyed it a lot as did the kids. Had no probs with the Luke character arc. Thought Poe was lucky not to have been dumped in space for his insubordination.