The Dragon Has Three Heads

[TK-421]

Fanning the flames of dissent Hagar the Horrible...I love it!

Yes, the baby, Ashara's grief, Ned's silence, it's all starting to make sense.

 

[Boaz]

the dayne baby might have been Ashara Dayne's and eddard stark's son, which is why ashara threw herself from the tower.

I like it... I like it alot!

Switched babies is one of the current storylines. Your hypothesis would be along the lines of Gilly fleeing with Mance's son, right?

Okay, so Ashara was a maid to Elia... and she left her baby with Elia while taking Aegon south to the protection of Dorne. She gave Aegon to Oberyn, Elia's twin brother, to raise. After her lover decided not to claim her or her son, after learning that her lover married another woman, after hearing of her son's death, after finding out that her lover killed her brother, and after seeing her lover claiming his new ******* son as his own, Ashara commited suicide.

The only problem is how did Ashara have a child and no one know about it? I'd think that many pregnancies of noble unmarried girls would have gone the way of Lysa's... terminated by their fathers.

 

[Tysha]

Hagar - it's a nice theory But, Aegon have a Targaryen features, it is known And I agree with Boaz about pregnant noble unmarried girls...

 

[Boaz]

Except for that Florent girl that Robert had at Stannis' wedding... I think the King's bastards might be a different quandary all together.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Im not gonna pass judgement.....Im just gonna ask questions....

Why would Ashara allow them to use her baby in this scenario? Other babies are available in a timely manner.

Where does Rhaegar and Lyanna factor in?

What promise would Lyanna make Ned promise to keep?

Why would the Kingsguard be at the Tower of Joy? That would be a beacon of obviousness shining the light on something you wanted quiet.

Why is Ashara at Starfall when Ned returned a certain sword to her? Why would Ned treat the woman who killed his child with any sort of respect?

Ned and Ashara would have had to slept together at the infamous tourney of Harrenhal (for the timeline to make sense), that doesnt make sense with the anecdotal evidence we have from Jojens story....

Those are just the ones I thought of at first glance....Im sure Ill come up with more in a sec....

 

[Hagar]

hi again - and thanks boaz for wishing me welcome

tysha, could you please remind how do we know that baby aegon has targ features - i can't recall that. in that case quentyn=aegon theory obviously doesn't work. or?

is it possible that ashara's son and aegon were swopped right after the birth, because targs sensed that dangerous times were coming? that's why everybody thought that aegon looked like targ, while it was ashara's son all along. that would also mean that the babies were swapped just-in-case, which would be much less cruel than substitute a baby just to murder it - and it also makes more sense.

to be honest, there are no arguments in favour of quentyn=aegon theory in the text, but that's exactly the point - up to the fourth book we hardly knew that quentyn existed. grrm obviously kept quentyn hidden from the readers, just as doran kept him hidden from westeros. somehow quentyn seems a very "arthurian" character to me - a future king was sent away as a foster child and kept hidden to protect him from dangerous times and enemies, only to reappear when time is right to claim his throne. i'm still somehow stuck to this theory, and if it proves true, it will be interesting to see what will be quentyn's "sword in stone" - his ordeal and definite proof that he is a king.

Im not gonna pass judgement.....Im just gonna ask questions....

Why would Ashara allow them to use her baby in this scenario? Other babies are available in a timely manner.

Where does Rhaegar and Lyanna factor in?

What promise would Lyanna make Ned promise to keep?

Why would the Kingsguard be at the Tower of Joy? That would be a beacon of obviousness shining the light on something you wanted quiet.

Why is Ashara at Starfall when Ned returned a certain sword to her? Why would Ned treat the woman who killed his child with any sort of respect?

Ned and Ashara would have had to slept together at the infamous tourney of Harrenhal (for the timeline to make sense), that doesnt make sense with the anecdotal evidence we have from Jojens story....

Those are just the ones I thought of at first glance....Im sure Ill come up with more in a sec....

well -
to start with, OF COURSE ashara wouldn't allow her child to be killed just like that, it should have been done against her will, but see above for my actual theory. it would be interesting though to guess WHO substituted the babies and who KNOWS about that - i'll have to think about that. if q=a, those would obviously be doran, mellario - his wife... maybe somehow also alleras-sallera?

furthermore, ashara's baby was probaby kept secret (just like lyanna's), so it was actually convenient to use a baby that "never existed" - thus aegon could be safely sent away - there would be no baby lack, and no baby surplus, so to say.
if lyanna could keep her pregnancy secret, why not ashara? we simply don't know that much about her yet.

lyanna and rhaegar story isn't actually affected in any way by eddard-ashara story - until the moment eddard takes jon in as his son instead of his and ashara's own. everything about l+r=j still stands - the promise, the kingsguard...
somehow the fact that they both had secret children makes eddard-lyanna brother-sister bond even stronger.

as for the harrenhal tourney (it is actually meera's story, not jojen's) - i think it actually works in favour of this theory - we know that Ashara danced LASTLY with "the quiet wolf" - and we don't know what happened later. besides, meera's story isn't that anecdotal after all - she and jojen kept asking bran how was it possible that he had never heard that story from his father

 

[Tysha]

hi again - and thanks boaz for wishing me welcome

tysha, could you please remind how do we know that baby aegon has targ features - i can't recall that. in that case quentyn=aegon theory obviously doesn't work. or?

Once it killed my Alleras=Aeogon theory.. sorry (I couldn't find this in the books either)
The Citadel: So Spake Martin - A Number of Questions

to be honest, there are no arguments in favour of quentyn=aegon theory in the text, but that's exactly the point - up to the fourth book we hardly knew that quentyn existed. grrm obviously kept quentyn hidden from the readers, just as doran kept him hidden from westeros. somehow quentyn seems a very "arthurian" character to me - a future king was sent away as a foster child and kept hidden to protect him from dangerous times and enemies, only to reappear when time is right to claim his throne. i'm still somehow stuck to this theory, and if it proves true, it will be interesting to see what will be quentyn's "sword in stone" - his ordeal and definite proof that he is a king.

Doran said that he had plans for Arianne to marry Targaryen (Viserys) and now, because Viserys is dead, it will be Quentyn who marries a Targaryen - Dany, so, if Quentin was Aegon, why would Doran make such plans? Doran planned for Quentyn to rull Dorne and Arianne to marry Viserys...

furthermore, ashara's baby was probaby kept secret (just like lyanna's), so it was actually convenient to use a baby that "never existed" - thus aegon could be safely sent away - there would be no baby lack, and no baby surplus, so to say.
if lyanna could keep her pregnancy secret, why not ashara? we simply don't know that much about her yet.

I think Lyanna has been kept in kinda isolation, and Ashara lived a regular life at her castle. And it's a big difference for a pregnant lady.

 

[Aegon the Unworthy]

well -
to start with, OF COURSE ashara wouldn't allow her child to be killed just like that, it should have been done against her will, but see above for my actual theory. it would be interesting though to guess WHO substituted the babies and who KNOWS about that - i'll have to think about that. if q=a, those would obviously be doran, mellario - his wife... maybe somehow also alleras-sallera?

furthermore, ashara's baby was probaby kept secret (just like lyanna's), so it was actually convenient to use a baby that "never existed" - thus aegon could be safely sent away - there would be no baby lack, and no baby surplus, so to say.
if lyanna could keep her pregnancy secret, why not ashara? we simply don't know that much about her yet.

lyanna and rhaegar story isn't actually affected in any way by eddard-ashara story - until the moment eddard takes jon in as his son instead of his and ashara's own. everything about l+r=j still stands - the promise, the kingsguard...
somehow the fact that they both had secret children makes eddard-lyanna brother-sister bond even stronger.

Yer right, I had some sort of brain seizure when I asked all the questions relating to the Rhaegar Lyanna angle....my apologies

That being said I still dont like it. Heres why....

Ashara is a loyal Targ Im sure. But how loyal do you have to be to give your child up to a near certain death sentence? Im not saying that part is not possible just not as likely as you may think. But you seem to have moved off that point so I wont belabor the probability that Ashara didnt give up a child willingly.

Now if what you say is true about Aegon not neccessarily being as Targ-featured as people seem to think then any ole child would do. So why would you condemn a loyalist child when you can just find some fatherless git or mother that is willing to be bought off?

Lets not kid ourselves. If things are far enough along you feel the need to ship yer child off to safety, then its likely things are not going to end on a positive side for your side. Any noble would be knowledgable enough to see through that deception, whereas the smallfolk could be easily misled.

And just for the record...Meeras story is anecdotal....by definition it is an anecdote. I say this because as a story and not an omniscient POV we have no way of knowing if theres intepretation or perspective coloring it. On that note...so Ned was too shy to even talk to this girl and had to have the ice broken by someone else, and he's going to "seal the deal" with her? Really? In one night? Once again possible, but not likely.

But just because I dont like an idea doesnt mean I dont like the thinking that went into it. Keep the thinking flowing but dont be fooled because Boaz likes a theory....you could cite two passages from the series that dont support your idea and convince him Gregor is the illegitimate offspring of the Others and Olenna the Queen of Thorns....

 

[Boaz]

Gregor is the illegitimate offspring of the Others and Olenna the Queen of Thorns....

I suspected this for years. Gregor is huge... he gets this from the Others. Gregor is mean... he gets this from Olenna. Makes sense don't it?

 

[TK-421]

I think you're on to something there, Aegon.

So, to make an attempt to summarize this 17 page discussion:

A) All agree that Dany is of course one of the three heads.

B) The other nominees (in what I think is a general popularity and in order of most "votes" are:
1. Jon Snow
2. Tyrion Lannister
3. Arya Stark
4. Brandon Stark
5. Aegon Targaryen (if alive of course)
6. Jaime Lannister
7. A ******* of Robert's such as Edric Storm or Gendry
8. Quentyn Martell
9. Alleras
10. Samwell Tarly
11. Margaery Tyrell
12. Stannis Baratheon

 

[Jaqen]

I haven't gone through this whole thread yet so no idea if anyone said anything like this but... either Dany, Jon, and Arya or Jon, Arya, and Bran would be my guess. The only reason I put Bran in there is cause all these dreams about him flying and crap. But really, I'd say it'd be Dany/Jon/Arya. Jon/Arya would marry and rule the north (or maybe everywhere) together.
Or something like that.

 

[Jaqen]

I was just reading GRRM's blog and ran across him saying this:

"Well, I made my appearance on Sheep Island a few hours ago, cleverly disguised as Tyrion the Imp for a reading and Q&A session at Bantam's virtual bookstore. Only this version of Tyrion could fly! Ah, if only the Tyrion in the books could fly, what mischief he will... ah... could... ah, never mind."

So, looks like Tyrion will definitely be a part of it, haha. Interesting. But maybe I'm looking too much into his post.

 

[Koopa]

I think you're on to something there, Aegon.

So, to make an attempt to summarize this 17 page discussion:

A) All agree that Dany is of course one of the three heads.

B) The other nominees (in what I think is a general popularity and in order of most "votes" are:
1. Jon Snow
2. Tyrion Lannister
3. Arya Stark
4. Brandon Stark
5. Aegon Targaryen (if alive of course)
6. Jaime Lannister
7. A ******* of Robert's such as Edric Storm or Gendry
8. Quentyn Martell
9. Alleras
10. Samwell Tarly
11. Margaery Tyrell
12. Stannis Baratheon

You are forgetting the Descendants of the Great Bastards. They're a popular choice for one of the heads as well.

 

[Boaz]

Jaqen, good find! Thanks. See, I always knew Tyrion was a closet Targ... one day I'll get my due... I'll be prooved right... I am the King of Conjecture! I'll go off and rule the Chronicles Network from beyond the grave or check into a psycho ward.

 

[TK-421]

Hey, I had found that back on post #111 on page 8 of this thread. Jaqen comes out of nowhere and...I want my props as well...

 

[Jaqen]

Well sorry, it's no big deal. I don't care who gets credit for it.

Anyways, I'm now convinced that the three heads are Danys, Aegon, and Tyrion. But we'll see.

 

[Stellar]

OK Hi. I know I'm beating a dead horse, but I claim newbie immunity and am posting anyway 'cause this is the thread I joined the forum for (all 18 pages of it... man that was long)

ANYWAY! A few things

Jaqen H'Ghar: Is a faceless man, servant of the many-faced god of death (duh.) The only reason he would be in Oldtown is to assasinate someone. The only reason he's sitting around as Pate is because he's biding his time and gathering information to perform another flawless assassination.

I get the impression the Faceless Men are opportunist/perfectionist killers. They'll take as much time as they need, gather as much information as they need to eliminate their target at the most opportune moment, and get out alive. Stealing the key to the Citadel could be part of that. You'd have far more opportunities to kill someone if you could go wherever you liked, and far fewer if you were just a pig boy.

Faceless Men also have a definite target, with a name. So Jaqen isn't defending anyone against unnamed enemies. He's there to kill a single individual. My bet is Sam, but that's another thought for another day.

This is actually relevant to the dragon's three heads (surprise On Topic!). I don't think Arya is one of the three heads, because she's training as a novice of the Many-Faced God, a worshipper of the bringer of death.

R'hllor is the god of life, fire and shadow. The Unnamed Other is the god of death (and presumably ice, if you follow the dichotomy) So in the battle between Westeros and the Others, the lines could be drawn up like this:

World of Men (Westeros)=Life=Fire=Dany+Dragons with Fire=Life=R'hllor
World Beyond=Death=Ice=The Others with Death=Ice=The Unnamed Other

Arya is training as a novice of the Many Faced God of Death, and by extension, the Unnamed Other. That means that, unless she leaves the Faceless Men soon, she, at the very least, will not ride a dragon for the side that opposes the god she serves. If she doesn't leave the Faceless Men, she'll probably do nothing, or be sent to assassinate someone.

Of course, I could also be extrapolating too far. Or, you know, she'll leave the Faceless Men. In which case, I still doubt that she'd be timely enough to earn a place as a dragon rider.

On the other hand though, that does link back to a question asked earlier in the thread (by Aegon the Conqueror, I think?) about who would send Jaqen to Oldtown as an assassin: If the Faceless Men worship the Unnamed Other as part of the Many Faced God, then it is not unreasonable to assume they have some contact with the Evil Overlord who is directing the Others forces in service of death/ice/the Unnamed Other?/etc

OH! ALSO! Aegon is dead. The only reason we're being led to believe otherwise is because a bunch of fake Aegons are going to show up and try to convince Dany (and us) that they're the real deal, in order to get a dragon. And telling us that Aegon is dead would soundly kill the fun. My bet is the first imposter to show up and claim his 'inheritance' will be Aurane Waters. He looks a little like Rhaegar and has conveniently lived most of his life as the ******* son of a house sworn to Dragonstone. So he'll show up, claim he was taken to Dragonstone with Viserys, but hidden away with house Velaryon for safe keeping. And Dany will believe him, because everyone who could prove otherwise is dead, and because he brought her a fleet. And chaos will ensue.

Also, Jon being a head of the dragon will depend on in what order Dany tackles her enemies. I have total faith in R+L=J. But even so, if Dany chooses to conquer Westeros first, and asks Jon to help her, I think he'll turn her down. He chose his vows over the only family he's ever known, so why abandon them for family he never knew?

However if she chooses to take down the Others first, Jon could conceivably become a dragon rider in that battle, and then be bound by conflicting oaths once it comes time for Dany to take Westeros. Or by that stage, Westeros could be torn up that there's no feasible opposition left (Jaime kills Cersei, the Dornish hand over Myrcella, the riverlords, north and vale bend the knee, the Tyrells are the only ones who put up a fight for Tommen and Margaery, but one dragon is more than enough to quell them) in which case Jon will be dragon rider and warg and Man of the Knight's Watch all at once.

And that was a long post.

 

[viZion]

OH! ALSO! Aegon is dead. The only reason we're being led to believe otherwise is because a bunch of fake Aegons are going to show up and try to convince Dany (and us) that they're the real deal, in order to get a dragon. And telling us that Aegon is dead would soundly kill the fun. My bet is the first imposter to show up and claim his 'inheritance' will be Aurane Waters. He looks a little like Rhaegar and has conveniently lived most of his life as the ******* son of a house sworn to Dragonstone. So he'll show up, claim he was taken to Dragonstone with Viserys, but hidden away with house Velaryon for safe keeping. And Dany will believe him, because everyone who could prove otherwise is dead, and because he brought her a fleet. And chaos will ensue.

Thank you very much! Excellent points. This is a very believable and likely situation. I just read Cersei's chapter last night where she gets a good look at Aurane Waters. My very first thought was, "Oh no! The people on the forum are right; Aegon is alive!" Then I calmed down and realized that it pretty much couldn't be true but it made me wonder what GRRM will end up using Aurane for. The way he appears to Cersei makes it seem like he's destined to become a very major character. Plus, this theory is far better than baby Aegon being hid away for years and then suddenly appearing right before he's needed to go ride a dragon.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

I like this theory of fake Aegon's coming forward to Dany. Hadn't thought of it before, but it would seem to fit into the story and the 'hints' that GRRM has given in interviews. I also don't believe that baby Aegon is alive, so I like this idea much better.

 

[DeannaBelle]

While I like the Dany/Jon/Tyrioin idea a lot, and before that, I was fond of the Dany/Jon/Robert-*******-child combo, I think there should be a female in the mix.

Someone told Dany she wold never bear another living child (let's hope she bears no "undead" children - ugh!). In that case, there would need to be another woman to make babies - um - heirs. However, maybe whoever said that to Dany was BSing.