Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[vanslyke]

Re: Jon Snow

As TK said, Brienne was not dead, so she was not brought back . I think Brienne is necessary to Jaime, she is his hope and connection to the good side of him he is trying so hard to find.
QUOTE]
Great point about Brienne. Jaime's redemption was solely because of her. I'm really rooting for them to "get together"

Yea Brienne just past out from the pain I always assumed. And yea Brienne and Jaime are perfect for each other even if they haven't figured it out yet lol.

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

As TK said, Brienne was not dead, so she was not brought back . I think Brienne is necessary to Jaime, she is his hope and connection to the good side of him he is trying so hard to find.

This is true. And I realize that she wasn't dead and therefore wasn't truly resurrected, but come on....they *were* hanging her. Making her mysteriously be alive is a little bit cheap. I think this is bugging me more than it might be bugging you guys because I just read the series cover to cover starting in April, and there have been a whole lot of these fake-out near-deaths. It's a shame because now that we're at a point where I really really want this device to be used (for Jon) I'm a little weary from the numerous times it has been used.

I'll agree that Brienne is very important to Jamie's journey, and I'm curious to see where Jamie's story is going now that he's dropped off the radar with her...but I'll save that speculation for a different thread since this one is Jon's.

Jon Snow is one of my favorite characters not only in ASOIAF but in all the literature I've ever read. I suppose I feel a little let down that Martin has brought us to this point with Jon. If this particular device had not been used so many times in the series then it would be more significant for Jon. Because it has been (in my opinion) grossly overused, we're all to the point where we simply expect it for Jon because of his importance to the story.

 

[hadd]

Re: Jon Snow

This is true. And I realize that she wasn't dead and therefore wasn't truly resurrected, but come on....they *were* hanging her. Making her mysteriously be alive is a little bit cheap. I think this is bugging me more than it might be bugging you guys because I just read the series cover to cover starting in April, and there have been a whole lot of these fake-out near-deaths. It's a shame because now that we're at a point where I really really want this device to be used (for Jon) I'm a little weary from the numerous times it has been used.

I think they're sort of balanced with the actual dying and fatal moments.
I mean if you're a knight or some sort of swordsman you're bound to have near-death moments. Even safe players like Brown Ben Plumm have them.

 

[vanslyke]

Re: Jon Snow

I think they're sort of balanced with the actual dying and fatal moments.
I mean if you're a knight or some sort of swordsman you're bound to have near-death moments. Even safe players like Brown Ben Plumm have them.

Exactly. With all this fighting and backstabbing and flat out killing, there's bound to be some close calls and very near fatal injuries. I personally like it because it keeps me wondering about that character in the back of my mind until we are affirmed they are dead or another POV pops up all of a sudden.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Just one general point. The thing that makes this series so unique is what some people are complaining about, that being, no one is safe, everyone is at risk. If GRRM had not established that he was willing to kill off major characters we wouldn't be talking about if Jon is alive or not. Main characters/heroic figures don't die in most books. If this was most books we'd be speculating about how Jon would be saved, etc, not if he is dead.

Just to reiterate my thoery about this though, I'll use the analogy of building a house. In AGOT, GRRM used various devices to make it SEEM as if Ned, Drogo and maybe Viserys were going to be major parts of the house's foundation, but in reality they were non weight bearing, and could be removed without affecting the foundation. Jon Snow is a major part of the foundation. All the misdirection and sleight of hand that GRRm can invent won't change that, and IMO, only someone who isn't really familiar with the story (someone who hadn't read 1-4) could think that Jon could be removed from the story. Just my opinion though, and I'm not being critical of anyone who beleives otherwise, and I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

Just one general point. The thing that makes this series so unique is what some people are complaining about, that being, no one is safe, everyone is at risk. If GRRM had not established that he was willing to kill off major characters we wouldn't be talking about if Jon is alive or not. Main characters/heroic figures don't die in most books. If this was most books we'd be speculating about how Jon would be saved, etc, not if he is dead.

Just to reiterate my thoery about this though, I'll use the analogy of building a house. In AGOT, GRRM used various devices to make it SEEM as if Ned, Drogo and maybe Viserys were going to be major parts of the house's foundation, but in reality they were non weight bearing, and could be removed without affecting the foundation. Jon Snow is a major part of the foundation. All the misdirection and sleight of hand that GRRm can invent won't change that, and IMO, only someone who isn't really familiar with the story (someone who hadn't read 1-4) could think that Jon could be removed from the story. Just my opinion though, and I'm not being critical of anyone who beleives otherwise, and I'm open to being convinced otherwise.

This is true and I agree entirely that he's too central to the story to take out the way Ned or Robb were. Jon is a key player in this even if you don't buy into R+L=J (which I do). I suppose I should just shut up and wait patiently for Mr. Martin to reveal to me how Jon will miraculously survive.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

This is true and I agree entirely that he's too central to the story to take out the way Ned or Robb were. Jon is a key player in this even if you don't buy into R+L=J (which I do). I suppose I should just shut up and wait patiently for Mr. Martin to reveal to me how Jon will miraculously survive.

People survive multiple stab wounds. i knew a guy that survived 4 gunshots (from a cop0 at almost point blank range. GRRM has his pretty assistant showing us that the box is empty (the dagger to the middle of the back) while the real action happens. It's just that in this case the action will be in the next book.

I'm reminded very much of Bran's fall, which led everyone to beleive that he was dead

 

[dragonstone]

Re: Jon Snow

If he is in fact R&L's son where does that put him in the throne succession since Aegon is in fact alive?

Third. He is ******* born so comes after Aegon and Daenerys even if he is older than both.

 

[dragonstone]

Re: Jon Snow

And the only reason it's "obvious" is because a few people figured out the clues and it has become "fact" for everyone who is a fan of the books.

Well, I'm no genius, only started the books a few months ago, but those thoughts of R+L=J did enter my head - before I ever looked at it on the net, the fact that others in the world thought the same just served to reassure me that I wasn't mad. I'm not sure it's obvious to all immediately, but I'd say a fair few picked up on it on their own. There is a tonne of evidence (which has probably been said but I'm just gonna point them out anyway).
Firstly, Lyanna went off with Rhaegar around the start of the war - he hardly kept her just to lock her up in the tower of joy, he was gonna want to act on his feelings.
Given the fact that the war appears to have lasted a little over 9 months (Robb was conceived at the start and born at the end) there's a good timeframe there for L getting pregnant and also gives R reason to keep her hidden for so long.
Lyanna made a promise to Ned which is never revealed - maybe to keep Jon as his own son and never tell a soul whose child he really was in order to keep him safe. Also there's the fact that Lyanna was found "lying in her own blood" but there's never a mention wounds - so possibly a birth has just taken place.
Why would the oh-so honourable Ned have a *******?
The dragon must have 3 heads and J is the obvious link between D and the others.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Welcome to the forum Dragonstone

 

[Ursa major]

Re: Jon Snow

Yes: Welcome, Dragonstone.

Some of us might have been foolish enough to think that in R+L=J, we'd seen something so important that we had to post a thread about it.

(In my case, I was lucky enough to read some of the posts in this forum first and so didn't embarrass myself. Until now, that is.... )

 

[vanslyke]

Re: Jon Snow

anyone notice the link between my avatar and jon?

 

[deathstar]

Re: Jon Snow

.........lol

 

[DarrellR]

Re: Jon Snow

Third. He is ******* born so comes after Aegon and Daenerys even if he is older than both.

What's that number you just used? 3? Like three dragons needing three riders? Heh, just saying *smiles*

Well, I think others said it but no one knows if Snow is even dead for him to be become undead. People have survived worse but who knows. A lot of emphasis (by Snow) was put on that the undead still have coherrent sense of who they are and the world around them even in their state. At least that was one of the things he wished to investigate with the two corpses.

But like someone else (Imp, I believe) stated for him to die would leave a severe hole in the plot. At the same time the idea that he is the child of Ned and Ashara (or some fisher daughter) would also be rather blah and do nothing to further along the plot as well. I'm sure if many read it they would go 'Really? Big freaking deal' Though even with all of us guessing R+L=J we'd still be like 'Things about to get hectic now!' So it would still have some effect. At this point I don't see how he can be anything but R+J because everything else would fall flat and be rather lackluster.

Now some may think he won't go that way because it is obvious but many of his ideas have been obvious. It's just the way he delivers it that grabs you. I saw the Red Wedding coming as I know some others did as well. It was rather blatant. But the delivery he utilized made it still make your mouth open and say 'Now that was something else.' Granted I didn't get that feeling with anything in this book (You all had to see the Snow attack coming since Mel predicted it for one) unfortunately but still enjoyed it. But for him to go a different route with Jon would lead to a brick wall.

The twist at this point is who fulfills the prophecy as the markings have shown for both Dany and Jon. I think someone said there hasn't been anything to show Jon is AA but someone already pointed it out earlier.

1. The knight with the star emblem covered in blood above Jon
2. Smoke from the stab wounds
3. Marsh crying

And of course there is Mel trying to learn more about the person she thought was AA in Stannis but everytime she did she got the image of Jon Snow to her frustration.

So if anything it seems Martin wants us trying to discern which is AA and who is not. I suspect they both will be. One of Ice and one of Fire but that is just a wild assumption that fits the title and the two battles Martin stated to be in the next book calling one a Battle of Ice and another a Battle of Fire.

 

[C Of K]

Re: Jon Snow

Graet post, DarrellR. A lot of good points in it, and while I don't disagree with most of them, I don't entirely agree, either.

Well, I think others said it but no one knows if Snow is even dead for him to be become undead. People have survived worse but who knows. A lot of emphasis (by Snow) was put on that the undead still have coherrent sense of who they are and the world around them even in their state. At least that was one of the things he wished to investigate with the two corpses.

People have survived worse. I think this is probably true,
but at this point, we don't know how bad Jon got it. I could
just as easily say that people have died from a lot less.

But like someone else (Imp, I believe) stated for him to die would leave a severe hole in the plot. At the same time the idea that he is the child of Ned and Ashara (or some fisher daughter) would also be rather blah and do nothing to further along the plot as well. I'm sure if many read it they would go 'Really? Big freaking deal' Though even with all of us guessing R+L=J we'd still be like 'Things about to get hectic now!' So it would still have some effect. At this point I don't see how he can be anything but R+J because everything else would fall flat and be rather lackluster.

I don't believe Jon's death would necessarily leave a big plot hole in the story. It might, but it also might not. It all depends on how GRRM spins this yarn. It's entirely conceivable that he could kill Jon, and have it make perfect sense with everything that has happened so far. GRRM has proven himself capable of doing this time and again. I guess the mystery of Jon's mother hasn't been one of the main plot devices that has brought me back to the story time and again. (At one time, I was interested in this. But getting the clear, concrete, answer has been drawn out so long, I've actually lost interest.) I haven't been waiting raptly to find out the answer, so I can easily see Jon as the son of a fisherman's daughter. I can easily see him as Rhaegar's child. I can easily see him dying from his wounds. I think Jon is a good character, but no better than a lot of others. I believe, one way or another, we'll get the answers to all our questions about the different characters like Jon. But perhaps we've already gotten our answers about him.

 

[dragonstone]

Re: Jon Snow

It would be sooooo interesting if Jon became a wight but remained a POV character

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

I just had a thought, scary I know! New crackpot theory:

What if Jon is not dead because it was not Jon being stabbed?! I know that since it happens in his own POV and with thoughts of Ghost in his head it may seem unlikely BUT we know Mel has gotten good at the glamour thing, she knows Jon is in grave danger, knows he will need her help. Seems odd that she would take such a big chance that he could really end up dead. just don't think her plans for him include his being un-dead! It would complicate things for them both especially if many people see him die! Pretty sure Stannis for one, even though he has gotten a little weird, would not be willing to work with Un-Jon.

Just think about it (the more I think about it the better it sounds!)

She has done it before, maybe she is doing it again!

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

I just had a thought, scary I know! New crackpot theory:

What if Jon is not dead because it was not Jon being stabbed?! I know that since it happens in his own POV and with thoughts of Ghost in his head it may seem unlikely BUT we know Mel has gotten good at the glamour thing, she knows Jon is in grave danger, knows he will need her help. Seems odd that she would take such a big chance that he could really end up dead. just don't think her plans for him include his being un-dead! It would complicate things for them both especially if many people see him die! Pretty sure Stannis for one, even though he has gotten a little weird, would not be willing to work with Un-Jon.

Just think about it (the more I think about it the better it sounds!)

She has done it before, maybe she is doing it again!

I used the "not in his POV theory" to support my "Ned is alive" crackpot theory. I'd need some convincing about this, how exactly does the fact that his POV become negated?

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

Originally I felt that since the event happened in his own POV with us inside his head that it made my theory seem impossible, not so sure now. Looking more closely at his thoughts it may lend it credence. Have we ever had anyone die in their own POV? (not sure but can't think of anyone besides Kevan) It says he didn't feel anything after first blow (this could mean he retreated into Ghost but don't think so)

Second Ghost is locked up, he would certainly protect Jon, but he of course would know it is not Jon, so he would not act, causing suspicion. Before Jon goes to his "death, Ghost is semi crazy, pacing, he goes so far as to bare his teeth at "Jon". The raven too is freakin, screaming Snow, Snow, Snow!

Jon thinks, says to himself,"a raven in a storm she saw this coming" and remembers her saying when you have your answers come to me" Maybe he did just that.

Then he goes and does a very not Jon thing with his announcement. To draw out those who would do him harm?

Still putting this together, sorry this so disjointed, but it feels more true all the time.

 

[vanslyke]

Re: Jon Snow

I'm on the fence with this one. We may be reaching for answers here lol. I like the idea though for sure and I just re-read the chapter and there are a couple points that make sense for it.