Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

Originally I felt that since the event happened in his own POV with us inside his head that it made my theory seem impossible, not so sure now. Looking more closely at his thoughts it may lend it credence. Have we ever had anyone die in their own POV? (not sure but can't think of anyone besides Kevan) It says he didn't feel anything after first blow (this could mean he retreated into Ghost but don't think so)

Second Ghost is locked up, he would certainly protect Jon, but he of course would know it is not Jon, so he would not act, causing suspicion. Before Jon goes to his "death, Ghost is semi crazy, pacing, he goes so far as to bare his teeth at "Jon". The raven too is freakin, screaming Snow, Snow, Snow!

Jon thinks, says to himself,"a raven in a storm she saw this coming" and remembers her saying when you have your answers come to me" Maybe he did just that.

Then he goes and does a very not Jon thing with his announcement. To draw out those who would do him harm?

Still putting this together, sorry this so disjointed, but it feels more true all the time.

The Red Wedding was told from Catelyn's point of view if memory serves.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

The Red Wedding was told from Catelyn's point of view if memory serves.

Correct

Needle, keep thinking about this. agood crackpot theory is like a fine wine.........

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

Crackpot theory-Jon is not dead because Jon is not Jon update:
Will do my best here to put it all together.


Magic we know can and has been done: reanimation of the dead, glamour of one person to look like another, a warg ability to take over another.


Okay, Mel knows Jon is in great danger, would she just let him die and hope to bring him back, short answer no. As far as Jon knows, Arya is all that is left of his family (and his favorite besides), he cannot just let Ramsey have her. Mel tells Jon “Look to the sky for answers, when you get them come to me.” I believe he did just that after reading Ramsey’s letter. It is stated that he had a 2 hour meeting between reading and going to his “death” it did not take that long for Jon and Tourmand to get their plot together. Ghost and the raven know something is up (granted this is before Jon gets the letter) but if they could sense Jon was in danger they could sense what was about to happen, Ghost goes so far as to bite at Jon, and had he been allowed to go with Jon it would not have worked. So he remains locked up.

I had already figured Mel had glamoured someone to look like Jon, my sticking point was who? They would have to be willing, and would Jon allow someone he trusted, that was willing to do such a thing do it, probably not.

Now for the connecting pieces, I give credit here where credit is due: To Imp, for reminding us of those bodies locked in their cells that must be there for a reason, and to my son for saying “Doesn’t Rhallor give the power to raise the dead, what about those bodies?”

If Cat can be brought back after rotting in the water for days, a semi frozen body should be easy.

So this is what happened, Mel breathes life (a semblance of one anyway) into a convienent body, glamours it look like Jon, Jon goes into it long enough to make that stupid speech (after being convinced by Mel and Borug(the guy with the boar) that he can do this), body gets killed, Jon picks up Ghost, who is really freakin out cause Jon in a dead body really upsets him. Now I believe the wildlings may well go on to Winterfell, will Jon go with them or it was that only part of the plan to draw out the danger, I don’t know.

All of this allows Jon to rid himself of those standing in the way of what must be done, it also lets him keep his friends. I say this because he is of the North, in the North, followed by the North. If he is brought back by Mel, he becomes Un-Jon, someone the northerners would view as an other, even if he can go into Ghost while his body dies, they would still hold this view. To warg is acceptable even valued, as long it does not involve taking another person. A dead body, with the potential to be an other, would surely not count.



I rest my case and claim bragging rights when this all proves true! If it doesn’t we will just forget that I may have gone crazy!

 

[Glaysher]

Re: Jon Snow

I rest my case and claim bragging rights when this all proves true! If it doesn’t we will just forget that I may have gone crazy!

I'm routing for your theory. It would certainly be better than Jon doing a Fitz from the Farseer books.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Crackpot theory-Jon is not dead because Jon is not Jon update:
Will do my best here to put it all together.


Magic we know can and has been done: reanimation of the dead, glamour of one person to look like another, a warg ability to take over another.


Okay, Mel knows Jon is in great danger, would she just let him die and hope to bring him back, short answer no. As far as Jon knows, Arya is all that is left of his family (and his favorite besides), he cannot just let Ramsey have her. Mel tells Jon “Look to the sky for answers, when you get them come to me.” I believe he did just that after reading Ramsey’s letter. It is stated that he had a 2 hour meeting between reading and going to his “death” it did not take that long for Jon and Tourmand to get their plot together. Ghost and the raven know something is up (granted this is before Jon gets the letter) but if they could sense Jon was in danger they could sense what was about to happen, Ghost goes so far as to bite at Jon, and had he been allowed to go with Jon it would not have worked. So he remains locked up.

I had already figured Mel had glamoured someone to look like Jon, my sticking point was who? They would have to be willing, and would Jon allow someone he trusted, that was willing to do such a thing do it, probably not.

Now for the connecting pieces, I give credit here where credit is due: To Imp, for reminding us of those bodies locked in their cells that must be there for a reason, and to my son for saying “Doesn’t Rhallor give the power to raise the dead, what about those bodies?”

If Cat can be brought back after rotting in the water for days, a semi frozen body should be easy.

So this is what happened, Mel breathes life (a semblance of one anyway) into a convienent body, glamours it look like Jon, Jon goes into it long enough to make that stupid speech (after being convinced by Mel and Borug(the guy with the boar) that he can do this), body gets killed, Jon picks up Ghost, who is really freakin out cause Jon in a dead body really upsets him. Now I believe the wildlings may well go on to Winterfell, will Jon go with them or it was that only part of the plan to draw out the danger, I don’t know.

All of this allows Jon to rid himself of those standing in the way of what must be done, it also lets him keep his friends. I say this because he is of the North, in the North, followed by the North. If he is brought back by Mel, he becomes Un-Jon, someone the northerners would view as an other, even if he can go into Ghost while his body dies, they would still hold this view. To warg is acceptable even valued, as long it does not involve taking another person. A dead body, with the potential to be an other, would surely not count.



I rest my case and claim bragging rights when this all proves true! If it doesn’t we will just forget that I may have gone crazy!

The one sticking point is who would "volunteer" to be the fake Jon. I suspect that Dolorous Edd would, and I really hope he's not dead if that was the case.

Great thoery though. i support it 100%

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

The one sticking point is who would "volunteer" to be the fake Jon. I suspect that Dolorous Edd would, and I really hope he's not dead if that was the case.

Great thoery though. i support it 100%

Oh Imp, you missed my whole new point! There was no volunteer, no one died who wasn't already dead! Those bodies in the Wall cells, one of them is twice dead now!

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Oh Imp, you missed my whole new point! There was no volunteer, no one died who wasn't already dead! Those bodies in the Wall cells, one of them is twice dead now!

I read too quickly, so I;ll call your theory brilliant

 

[Eulalia]

Re: Jon Snow

Interesting theory, Needle! Why should GRRM not use one of two fairly fresh cadavers, a warg, and a little glamor?

Imp, don't even think about the demise of Dolorous Edd!

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

Crackpot theory-Jon is not dead because Jon is not Jon update:
Will do my best here to put it all together.


Magic we know can and has been done: reanimation of the dead, glamour of one person to look like another, a warg ability to take over another.


Okay, Mel knows Jon is in great danger, would she just let him die and hope to bring him back, short answer no. As far as Jon knows, Arya is all that is left of his family (and his favorite besides), he cannot just let Ramsey have her. Mel tells Jon “Look to the sky for answers, when you get them come to me.” I believe he did just that after reading Ramsey’s letter. It is stated that he had a 2 hour meeting between reading and going to his “death” it did not take that long for Jon and Tourmand to get their plot together. Ghost and the raven know something is up (granted this is before Jon gets the letter) but if they could sense Jon was in danger they could sense what was about to happen, Ghost goes so far as to bite at Jon, and had he been allowed to go with Jon it would not have worked. So he remains locked up.

I had already figured Mel had glamoured someone to look like Jon, my sticking point was who? They would have to be willing, and would Jon allow someone he trusted, that was willing to do such a thing do it, probably not.

Now for the connecting pieces, I give credit here where credit is due: To Imp, for reminding us of those bodies locked in their cells that must be there for a reason, and to my son for saying “Doesn’t Rhallor give the power to raise the dead, what about those bodies?”

If Cat can be brought back after rotting in the water for days, a semi frozen body should be easy.

So this is what happened, Mel breathes life (a semblance of one anyway) into a convienent body, glamours it look like Jon, Jon goes into it long enough to make that stupid speech (after being convinced by Mel and Borug(the guy with the boar) that he can do this), body gets killed, Jon picks up Ghost, who is really freakin out cause Jon in a dead body really upsets him. Now I believe the wildlings may well go on to Winterfell, will Jon go with them or it was that only part of the plan to draw out the danger, I don’t know.

All of this allows Jon to rid himself of those standing in the way of what must be done, it also lets him keep his friends. I say this because he is of the North, in the North, followed by the North. If he is brought back by Mel, he becomes Un-Jon, someone the northerners would view as an other, even if he can go into Ghost while his body dies, they would still hold this view. To warg is acceptable even valued, as long it does not involve taking another person. A dead body, with the potential to be an other, would surely not count.



I rest my case and claim bragging rights when this all proves true! If it doesn’t we will just forget that I may have gone crazy!

I have to admit that I was pretty skeptical of a "Jon is not Jon" theory on the surface, but this makes a LOT of sense. Awesome theory.

 

[C Of K]

Re: Jon Snow

I have to admit. An eerie feeling just came over me.
Needle, as The Imp said, this is brilliant.

I have to wonder why Jon's wound was smoking.
The only answer I can come up with is that Melisandre
cast some sort of spell on him or whom/whatever that was.
We all know how her powers seem to favor heat and fire.

EDIT: I also have to wonder why Jon would get it into his head
to march on Winterfell alone. It's suicide, unless of course, he
knows he won't die. In Dance, Jon seemed to lack confidence in
Melisandre's vision, but maybe George was just throwing a curve
ball at us. Jon had to see that there was more accuracy in the
things she saw than there was error. Maybe he did go to her, as
you say.

 

[Ursa major]

Re: Jon Snow

I agree, this a great theory. I had wondered about whether warging was involved at Jon's presumed moment of death, simply because of the content of the book's prologue. I almost posted something. I'm glad I didn't, because I was going to be more than vague (and I'm being very kind to myself in saying that) and I hadn't sorted out any of the details.

Needle's theory looks pretty solid. So solid, in fact, that I'm not sure it can be considered to be crackpot at all.

Excellent work, Needle.

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

Thanks all! Once this idea got in my head it just would not go away, felt right. Remembering those bodies was the kicker, why were they made such a point of? Now it makes a very smooth fit.

So much for what some have said is a low magic book! GRRM just being sneaky, something he is good at, but think I caught him this time!

 

[viZion]

Re: Jon Snow

I read this theory yesterday when you posted it and needed time to think about it. It's pretty crazy but, yeah, this is a really good theory. Thanks for putting the thought into this and making it plausible. It could have easily gone the opposite direction. Well done!

Edit: I would be happy if the situation resolved in this manner. The aspects of this theory are the kinds of precedents I would like to see followed rather than "Let's just resurrect everyone important that we need!". The setup for this theory is completely right there in ADWD rather than relying on a precedent set two books ago. Again, great job.

 

[mtzGr]

Re: Jon Snow

Crackpot theory-Jon is not dead because Jon is not Jon update:
Will do my best here to put it all together.


Magic we know can and has been done: reanimation of the dead, glamour of one person to look like another, a warg ability to take over another.


Okay, Mel knows Jon is in great danger, would she just let him die and hope to bring him back, short answer no. As far as Jon knows, Arya is all that is left of his family (and his favorite besides), he cannot just let Ramsey have her. Mel tells Jon “Look to the sky for answers, when you get them come to me.” I believe he did just that after reading Ramsey’s letter. It is stated that he had a 2 hour meeting between reading and going to his “death” it did not take that long for Jon and Tourmand to get their plot together. Ghost and the raven know something is up (granted this is before Jon gets the letter) but if they could sense Jon was in danger they could sense what was about to happen, Ghost goes so far as to bite at Jon, and had he been allowed to go with Jon it would not have worked. So he remains locked up.

I had already figured Mel had glamoured someone to look like Jon, my sticking point was who? They would have to be willing, and would Jon allow someone he trusted, that was willing to do such a thing do it, probably not.

Now for the connecting pieces, I give credit here where credit is due: To Imp, for reminding us of those bodies locked in their cells that must be there for a reason, and to my son for saying “Doesn’t Rhallor give the power to raise the dead, what about those bodies?”

If Cat can be brought back after rotting in the water for days, a semi frozen body should be easy.

So this is what happened, Mel breathes life (a semblance of one anyway) into a convienent body, glamours it look like Jon, Jon goes into it long enough to make that stupid speech (after being convinced by Mel and Borug(the guy with the boar) that he can do this), body gets killed, Jon picks up Ghost, who is really freakin out cause Jon in a dead body really upsets him. Now I believe the wildlings may well go on to Winterfell, will Jon go with them or it was that only part of the plan to draw out the danger, I don’t know.

All of this allows Jon to rid himself of those standing in the way of what must be done, it also lets him keep his friends. I say this because he is of the North, in the North, followed by the North. If he is brought back by Mel, he becomes Un-Jon, someone the northerners would view as an other, even if he can go into Ghost while his body dies, they would still hold this view. To warg is acceptable even valued, as long it does not involve taking another person. A dead body, with the potential to be an other, would surely not count.



I rest my case and claim bragging rights when this all proves true! If it doesn’t we will just forget that I may have gone crazy!

I like your theory but I'm going to have to disagree with it. I think if GRRM were going to do something like this, the chapter would have to be told from the POV of someone else. Because it is being told from Jon's POV, you'd have to assume that half of the chapter is just never written at all, or that "They talked for the best part of two hours", is a lie. Even if Melisandre had been summoned to their discussion, they never left the armory, and from the armory, went straight to Shieldhall. In addition, the thought he has after his speech at Shieldhall, "I should talk to Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me", supports the claim that he has not had contact with her since receiving the letter from Ramsay.

Also, this theory assumes that he is completely comfortable with his powers as a warg (which I'm pretty sure he is not), AND that he is a highly proficient skin changer. To my knowledge he has never entered Ghost while consciously awake, only sleeping, and he has also never entered any other animal but Ghost. These two claims could be wrong though, I'm sure someone could find a passage proving otherwise.

This theory is assuming a huge gap in consciousness, which I just don't think he can really get away with. The way the chapter reads to me, I think it should be taken at face value; Jon really got stabbed. I am fairly confident he is not dead and we will learn who exactly saved him, because the chapter in no way claims that Jon or Not-Jon is dead, only in a bad way. I am guessing that Mel saw it in her fires and immediately released Ghost.

I still like the theory though!

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

I like your theory but I'm going to have to disagree with it. I think if GRRM were going to do something like this, the chapter would have to be told from the POV of someone else. Because it is being told from Jon's POV, you'd have to assume that half of the chapter is just never written at all, or that "They talked for the best part of two hours", is a lie. Even if Melisandre had been summoned to their discussion, they never left the armory, and from the armory, went straight to Shieldhall. In addition, the thought he has after his speech at Shieldhall, "I should talk to Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me", supports the claim that he has not had contact with her since receiving the letter from Ramsay.

Also, this theory assumes that he is completely comfortable with his powers as a warg (which I'm pretty sure he is not), AND that he is a highly proficient skin changer. To my knowledge he has never entered Ghost while consciously awake, only sleeping, and he has also never entered any other animal but Ghost. These two claims could be wrong though, I'm sure someone could find a passage proving otherwise.

This theory is assuming a huge gap in consciousness, which I just don't think he can really get away with. The way the chapter reads to me, I think it should be taken at face value; Jon really got stabbed. I am fairly confident he is not dead and we will learn who exactly saved him, because the chapter in no way claims that Jon or Not-Jon is dead, only in a bad way. I am guessing that Mel saw it in her fires and immediately released Ghost.

I still like the theory though!

I understand your reasons for disagreeing but have to say that none of them negate the theory. It would be told from Jon’s POV because regardless of what the flesh is the mind is Jon.


They talked for 2 hours does not mean they talked alone and the only reason we have to assume they never left is that the guard had changed when they left for the shield hall. This part is very short and blunt, highly suspicious for GRRM who tends to describe the details of everything! He (GRRM) says- They talked for the best part of 2 hours. Horse and Rory had replaced Fulk and Mully at the armory door with the change of watch. “With me,” Jon told them when the time had come. Now when the time had come by itself is a strange way to say it, when they left or as they departed would seem a more normal way to say it. Anyway my point is from these 2 short sentences maybe we are supposed to think exactly what you said.



Jon’s thought of I should have told the queen first, to me, simply means he should have told the queen before he told everyone else. And to speak to Mel about finding Ramsey probably just means he forgot that part before, too much to do!


As far as I know, Jon has never warged into another but he is very good at just doing what he sets his mind to. He knows these things can be done, he has made up his mind, just do it!
It certainly never says Jon is dead, but if it is his body, he is very badly injured. The only example we have of Rhallor’s priests healing is Victarion, pretty brutal and he would have the same problems with his own people trusting him he will have if he is resurrected (again Victarion as example, his own people don’t trust him now) If no healing is given he is out of commission for quite some time, not a good thing for the Lord Commander right now!

 

[mtzGr]

Re: Jon Snow

They talked for 2 hours does not mean they talked alone and the only reason we have to assume they never left is that the guard had changed when they left for the shield hall. This part is very short and blunt, highly suspicious for GRRM who tends to describe the details of everything! He (GRRM) says- They talked for the best part of 2 hours. Horse and Rory had replaced Fulk and Mully at the armory door with the change of watch. “With me,” Jon told them when the time had come. Now when the time had come by itself is a strange way to say it, when they left or as they departed would seem a more normal way to say it. Anyway my point is from these 2 short sentences maybe we are supposed to think exactly what you said.

My point though is that this is being told from Jon's point of view, I don't see why Jon would be hiding secrets from the reader. If it were being told from the guards perspective, I would agree with you, but this theory assumes that within the 2 hours they decided on a plan, summoned Mel, either retrieved a dead body or went to the cells for Jon to slip into it, and if they did go to the body, came back to the armory without letting on to the guards. They talked for the best part of two hours, does not seem to entail all of this when the chapter is Jon's. If it were say Horse who had commented They were in there for the better part of two hours talking, it seems more plausible. Also, I believe the line "'With me,' Jon told them, when the time had come", was meant to lend weight to their discussion and ultimately his decision, but I will agree it is not straight-forward.

As far as I know, Jon has never warged into another but he is very good at just doing what he sets his mind to. He knows these things can be done, he has made up his mind, just do it!

I think I would need more evidence to believe he could do this. It is on a whole different level of what he knows, and just because Bran knows this intuitively and has done it isn't evidence Jon knows this and could easily do the same in my opinion. But supposing he does this, which he probably could, I can't imagine him acquiring the knowledge and ability in under 2 hours. It would have to bypass the entire learning process and skip right to mastery.

It certainly never says Jon is dead, but if it is his body, he is very badly injured. The only example we have of Rhallor’s priests healing is Victarion, pretty brutal and he would have the same problems with his own people trusting him he will have if he is resurrected (again Victarion as example, his own people don’t trust him now) If no healing is given he is out of commission for quite some time, not a good thing for the Lord Commander right now!

Jon was stabbed 2 times, once in the belly, and once in the shoulder blades. The first cut was superficial and, "He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...", is not actual evidence of a fourth stabbing. I really don't see why there needs to be anything supernatural about his recovery, people have survived grievous wounds before Rhollor started resurrecting everyone. As to his wound smoking, if I had to make anything out of the line, it was that Mel was already there with Ghost (he called out to him), and she immediately started cauterizing the wound (with fire!).

The only way I see this theory working, is if Jon had already assumed another body before the chapter started. If we take this stance, the question becomes who's body is he in? It can't be the dead guys, unless you again assume that Jon is lying to the reader.

But now I'll argue against Melisandre explicitly seeing Jon's death before the raven came. In her chapter, "Melisandre has seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen", she saw the danger (which proved to be literal), but did not see an explicit attack. She has also told him this, but he has ignored it, and is mistrustful of her fortune telling because she got it wrong with Arya, so I don't see much supporting evidence of him deciding to be convinced of her visions all of a sudden and slipping into another body.

Now as to the nature of her visions, it is clear that she sees what could come to pass, and what will come to pass, but they are distinctly different. I would argue that she cannot see something that will come to pass until it has been intended. For example, she could not see the raven coming until the raven had been sent. Following this line of thought, at the earliest, Jon's attack by his brothers could have been intended only after Jon had consciously made the decision to go to Winterfell (prompted by Ramsay's message). More likely, it was intended after they had learned of his plans, at which point Mel would see clearly his death, or at least his immediate danger.

Obviously that is all conjecture, but I think it follows the story. Although I like your theory, it seems like it requires a bit of faith on a few points that aren't substantiated. I wish that GRRM's chapters were like tv episodes which he released once a week so we could find out what happens!

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

Obviously that is all conjecture, but I think it follows the story. Although I like your theory, it seems like it requires a bit of faith on a few points that aren't substantiated. I wish that GRRM's chapters were like tv episodes which he released once a week so we could find out what happens!

Boy do I agree with you here! The biggest problem with being an avid reader is that no one writes as fast as you read! I am waiting for someone to invent a telepathic typewriter like Bobby used in Tommyknockers.

Faith is the ultimate catch 22, if you have proof you don't need faith and if you have faith you don't need proof.

 

[Ursa major]

Re: Jon Snow

My point though is that this is being told from Jon's point of view, I don't see why Jon would be hiding secrets from the reader. If it were being told from the guards perspective, I would agree with you, but this theory assumes that within the 2 hours they decided on a plan, summoned Mel, either retrieved a dead body or went to the cells for Jon to slip into it, and if they did go to the body, came back to the armory without letting on to the guards. They talked for the best part of two hours, does not seem to entail all of this when the chapter is Jon's. If it were say Horse who had commented They were in there for the better part of two hours talking, it seems more plausible. Also, I believe the line "'With me,' Jon told them, when the time had come", was meant to lend weight to their discussion and ultimately his decision, but I will agree it is not straight-forward.

In books with far fewer POVs (and sometimes only the one), we accept that the narration does not always contain everything. In fact much has to be omitted; otherwise every surprise in the book would have to be a surprise to the narrator (which can make the narrator look as if they're more reactive than proactive). Now I know that this is often seen at the end of chapters of scenes - the narrator says something along the lines of, "I've got an idea!" and we hear nothing more of the conversation - but often the reader is simply left in the dark.

GRRM has often has to rely on the latter, simply because his POV chapters are rather long and there are no obvious scene breaks where the reader might guess that they're being left in the dark. I also think we've been entranced into believing that big plot secrets (and plots ) are usually hidden in the gaps between POVs (i.e. when something big and secret is happening with one POV, GRRM distracts with the doings of other POVs), or are being worked out in POVs that are never written down (e.g. Littlefinger's and Varys's). But all that means is that GRRM has, over the previous four books, trained us to believe that POVs, when in focus, are both honest and, in terms of plot, comprehensive. Having trained us, GRRM can now use this to further fool us. And why wouldn't he? The series is full of misdirection and this would simply be misdirection of a different type.

Now while I might be somewhat upset if the POV narrations turned out to be unreliable by commission (i.e. that the POVs have lied to the reader), I wouldn't be - although some might - if they were unreliable by omission, which is what Needle's theory partly relies on.

I think I would need more evidence to believe he could do this. It is on a whole different level of what he knows, and just because Bran knows this intuitively and has done it isn't evidence Jon knows this and could easily do the same in my opinion. But supposing he does this, which he probably could, I can't imagine him acquiring the knowledge and ability in under 2 hours. It would have to bypass the entire learning process and skip right to mastery.

This is a more serious problem, but not insurmountable. Now that Jon knows Mel is for real (even if we know that her powers are somewhat patchy and rely on some conjuring), he might believe her if she told him he'd only scratched at the surface of what he could do. (And she must know about warging. When Stannis first appeared at the Wall, Mel attacked the bird when Varamyr was in it. Why would she do that if it she didn't know that Varamyr was using the bird? And why have we seen this attack on the bird in two different POVs, and in two books, if it wasn't important?)

Jon was stabbed 2 times, once in the belly, and once in the shoulder blades. The first cut was superficial and, "He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...", is not actual evidence of a fourth stabbing. I really don't see why there needs to be anything supernatural about his recovery, people have survived grievous wounds before Rhollor started resurrecting everyone. As to his wound smoking, if I had to make anything out of the line, it was that Mel was already there with Ghost (he called out to him), and she immediately started cauterizing the wound (with fire!).

I'm fine with this as an alternative to major misdirection and a Mel-driven resurrection.

The only way I see this theory working, is if Jon had already assumed another body before the chapter started. If we take this stance, the question becomes who's body is he in? It can't be the dead guys, unless you again assume that Jon is lying to the reader.

I'm not sure that this is right. All that's necessary is that the change occurs while we're not in the room and that he doesn't comment on the fact that he's in someone else's body. (And if he did change bodies before the chapter begins, he'd still have to omit from the narrative how he feels about the warging.)

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

My point though is that this is being told from Jon's point of view, I don't see why Jon would be hiding secrets from the reader. If it were being told from the guards perspective, I would agree with you, but this theory assumes that within the 2 hours they decided on a plan, summoned Mel, either retrieved a dead body or went to the cells for Jon to slip into it, and if they did go to the body, came back to the armory without letting on to the guards. They talked for the best part of two hours, does not seem to entail all of this when the chapter is Jon's. If it were say Horse who had commented They were in there for the better part of two hours talking, it seems more plausible. Also, I believe the line "'With me,' Jon told them, when the time had come", was meant to lend weight to their discussion and ultimately his decision, but I will agree it is not straight-forward.




I think I would need more evidence to believe he could do this. It is on a whole different level of what he knows, and just because Bran knows this intuitively and has done it isn't evidence Jon knows this and could easily do the same in my opinion. But supposing he does this, which he probably could, I can't imagine him acquiring the knowledge and ability in under 2 hours. It would have to bypass the entire learning process and skip right to mastery.



Jon was stabbed 2 times, once in the belly, and once in the shoulder blades. The first cut was superficial and, "He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...", is not actual evidence of a fourth stabbing. I really don't see why there needs to be anything supernatural about his recovery, people have survived grievous wounds before Rhollor started resurrecting everyone. As to his wound smoking, if I had to make anything out of the line, it was that Mel was already there with Ghost (he called out to him), and she immediately started cauterizing the wound (with fire!).

The only way I see this theory working, is if Jon had already assumed another body before the chapter started. If we take this stance, the question becomes who's body is he in? It can't be the dead guys, unless you again assume that Jon is lying to the reader.

But now I'll argue against Melisandre explicitly seeing Jon's death before the raven came. In her chapter, "Melisandre has seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen", she saw the danger (which proved to be literal), but did not see an explicit attack. She has also told him this, but he has ignored it, and is mistrustful of her fortune telling because she got it wrong with Arya, so I don't see much supporting evidence of him deciding to be convinced of her visions all of a sudden and slipping into another body.

Now as to the nature of her visions, it is clear that she sees what could come to pass, and what will come to pass, but they are distinctly different. I would argue that she cannot see something that will come to pass until it has been intended. For example, she could not see the raven coming until the raven had been sent. Following this line of thought, at the earliest, Jon's attack by his brothers could have been intended only after Jon had consciously made the decision to go to Winterfell (prompted by Ramsay's message). More likely, it was intended after they had learned of his plans, at which point Mel would see clearly his death, or at least his immediate danger.

Obviously that is all conjecture, but I think it follows the story. Although I like your theory, it seems like it requires a bit of faith on a few points that aren't substantiated. I wish that GRRM's chapters were like tv episodes which he released once a week so we could find out what happens!

Until you or someone else comes up with a btter theory, I'm sticking with what Needle proposed. I also agree with what Ura said in the post above, espcially the part about attacking the eagle. Needle's solution is, IMO, elegant and has no obvious holes that can't be filled in using facts already established in the story.

 

[mtzGr]

Re: Jon Snow

This is a more serious problem, but not insurmountable. Now that Jon knows Mel is for real (even if we know that her powers are somewhat patchy and rely on some conjuring), he might believe her if she told him he'd only scratched at the surface of what he could do. (And she must know about warging. When Stannis first appeared at the Wall, Mel attacked the bird when Varamyr was in it. Why would she do that if it she didn't know that Varamyr was using the bird? And why have we seen this attack on the bird in two different POVs, and in two books, if it wasn't important?)

She has in fact talked to him of his powers in one of his chapters, so she is very much aware of his warging. I completely agree that he could start to explore his powers at her prompting him to do so, but the theory either assumes that he has done this and mastered it within two hours (unless the two hours is inaccurate), or that he had done so earlier in the book, at which there is no evidence of a change in attitude or character on Jon's part to suggest he has.

This point isn't surmountable, but it relies heavily on something that is nowhere in Jon's story, and only in Bran's. I understand that just because we aren't told something, doesn't mean that its not there, but if you accept this then you have to accept that a large part of Jon's character (his mistrust of Mel, and his inexperience and aversion to warging) has been changed within the span of a hundred pages or so that went unwritten, or two hours of dialogue and action that encompass a great deal of character growth and mastery on Jon's part.

I'm not sure that this is right. All that's necessary is that the change occurs while we're not in the room and that he doesn't comment on the fact that he's in someone else's body. (And if he did change bodies before the chapter begins, he'd still have to omit from the narrative how he feels about the warging.)

I think Jon was really stabbed, but I must say, the more I think about the theory, the more it seems plausible!