Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[TK-421]

Re: Jon Snow

It was, but it also says she chose a Stark. Unless the reference was to Brandon Stark who we get to know from his taking things like Lady Ryswell's maidehood (as she described to Theon).

It does not say in what order she may have borne children either.

 

[hadd]

Re: Jon Snow

Wasn't it said in that BFS chapter that Ashara threw herself out of a window because of the grief she bore after losing her child?

And it was said in the former books that Aegon was smashed against the wall...or something.
You never know!

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

I hope that Jon is not resurrected. It's fine if the stabs weren't fatal to begin with but if he dies and comes back as "unJon", I think the series will have officially jumped the shark. Too much of this resurrection stuff going on. It's really a poor way to handle things. It's the main reason I stopped reading Erikson's ridiculous series. I miss the feeling in the first three books that anyone could die, even your favorite character.

Vote "No" on Resurrection.

I personally thought that bringing Brienne back to life was too much. I like Brienne, but I don't think her character was important enough to warrant that. And what purpose does UnCat really serve?

I'm with you. Jon is one of my favorite characters, I don't want him to be dead, but I don't want him resurrected, either.

 

[deathstar]

Re: Jon Snow

Welcome to the forums. Great first post!

Everything we know about Ned says that this can't be. I mean, he was honorable and the works. I am not likely to believe this. Godric probably wanted to discredit Ned somehow. I can't get on the Tower of the Hand right now, otherwise I would give you more information, but I doubt that this is true.

Godric Borrell, lord of Sweetsister, is that him?

Yep thats him. I agree it is likely not the full truth, but it should be partly true. Maybe theres a cover up by Ned to ensure nobody knows the identity of Jon.

Also nothing in the prophecy of Azor Ahai really links clearly to Jon yet, but if he is resurrected in the next book this could come true. The main thing that suggests he is that important is simply the mystery of his birth combined with the amount of time given to him in the novels to date. Also agree that the back story on Lyanna and others has not been filled in to date

To me Dany still best fits the AA prophecy

 

[deathstar]

Re: Jon Snow

UnCat is going to kill littlefinger

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

I have to admit, my very first thought was "un-Jon" as well. Even if she doesnt use the breath of life, I think she'll be involved in his recovery. She knew it was coming, after all.

First of all, your avatar = awesome. LOL!

Second, I don't really get the hang-up about Mel having never demonstrated the ability. Just because it's never been addressed doesn't mean it isn't there. What has been addressed, if you recall, is the significance of Mel's powers. Recall the shadows she birthed that slew Renly and that other lord? How she is able to walk around in normal clothes all toasty warm while everybody else is shivered in head-to-toe fur? It doesn't appear that she sleeps, either. Then of course there's that bit of sorcery that made Rattleshirt look like Mance, and vice versa. Mel's powers are not to be trifled with, I personally would have no trouble believing she has the power to restore him to full health. Though I do hope for the integrity of the story that it's not UnJon, just BackfromtheBrinkofDeathJon.

When are these Starks going to learn that the instant they lock up or drive off their wolves to appease someone else their lives are in mortal peril?

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

Why does he have to be reborn at all? If he is Azor Ahai reborn, wouldn't that have happened when he was, you know, born? In that Azor Ahai lived and died, and then was reborn in Jon when he was born.

I also don't buy this idea that death will release him from his vows. He broke his vows when he declared he was going south - before he died. Dying isn't going to change that - if he is resurrected, he'll still be an oathbreaker. Just a zombie oathbreaker.

Zombie Oathbreaker would be an excellent name for a band.

 

[vanslyke]

Re: Jon Snow

First of all, your avatar = awesome. LOL!

Second, I don't really get the hang-up about Mel having never demonstrated the ability. Just because it's never been addressed doesn't mean it isn't there. What has been addressed, if you recall, is the significance of Mel's powers. Recall the shadows she birthed that slew Renly and that other lord? How she is able to walk around in normal clothes all toasty warm while everybody else is shivered in head-to-toe fur? It doesn't appear that she sleeps, either. Then of course there's that bit of sorcery that made Rattleshirt look like Mance, and vice versa. Mel's powers are not to be trifled with, I personally would have no trouble believing she has the power to restore him to full health. Though I do hope for the integrity of the story that it's not UnJon, just BackfromtheBrinkofDeathJon.

When are these Starks going to learn that the instant they lock up or drive off their wolves to appease someone else their lives are in mortal peril?

Totally agree! I was disappointed that Jon didn't have more faith in Mel. Especially after she foresaw the girl coming to him on the horse. Just because she got the identity of the girl wrong he just brushes off her powers. And he has to have a feeling there is something special about him since he can live in Ghost when he wants to. Very angry at his stubbornness. However, that scene at the wall where he makes the speech and reads the letter to everyone is one of the best scenes in a book I've ever read. It gave me goosebumps lol. And then I almost threw my Ipad out the window a couple pages later...ugh

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

I have read on this forum and one other that Jon Snow could be the offspring of Rhaegar and Lynanna Stark. But in book five Bran sees a vision of his father praying in the Winterfell weirwood asking for his wife's forgiveness. If he is not seeking pardon for fathering Jon Snow, what did he do that requires Catelyn's forgiveness?

Lied to her and is still lying to her (at the time he was praying because he wasn't dead yet), causing her to believe he was unfaithful to her and would insult her honor by bringing his "*******" home to be raised alongside with all of his true born children?

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

And the Ned Stark character was really devoted to his wife. And whether Jon was his ******* or not, by playing the role of the faithless husband (to protect Jon Snow's identity ) he would dishonor Catelyn just as surely as he would if Jon were his ******* son. In either case he would hate himself for the pain he caused her for certain.....

Which is why the promise Ned made to Lyanna has caused him so many problems, and Cat so much pain.

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

Wasn't there a reference in either the DIscarded knight or possibly the Queensguard, about Ned and Ashara Dayne?

Here's the reference I was thinking of

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

It does address the possibility (maybe likelihood) of an affair between Ned and Ashara, but it doesn't explain Jon. It states explicitly that her daughter had been stillborn. Which means if she and Ned produced a child, that child was a daughter and the child died. If Lyanna gave birth to Jon around the same timeframe, it would make the explanation that Jon was Ned's ******* from Ashara even MORE believable, as Ned could count on some kind of word of his infidelity getting back to Cat eventually (it did), giving Cat no reason to question that Jon was exactly who Ned said he was.

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

I have not searched to see if this has been answered but in regard to Jon's heritage, in ADWD when Davos is speaking to Lord Godric on the 3 sisters

Lord Godric states that at the start of Robert's rebellion Ned had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and found a fisherman to carry him across the bite. A storm caught them, the fisherman drowned but his Daughter got Stark to the Sisters although Stark left her with a bag of silver and a ******* in her Belly. "Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.

What is the take on this with respect to the theories here

My take is that the issue of Jon's parentage is such a matter of facination to anyone that knows the unflappably honorable Eddard Stark....this is merely rumor mongering and assumption. Ned has always claimed Jon is his son, people will naturally wonder who the mother is and gossip over it just as people do in our world today.

 

[dragonstone]

Re: Jon Snow

There's so much evidence to suggest that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, too much in fact... Which leads me to believe that in fact he isn't. Martin likes to play his readers - like the way he hinted heavily that it was either Tyrion or Jaime who sent the hired knife to kill Bran, or that Jon Arryn was poisoned by the Lannisters when in fact it was his own wife. Nothing is EVER as it seems in those books.

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

The principle difference between your two examples and R+L=J is that in both of those cases it was outrightly stated in the context of the story that XYZ happened (especially in the case of Tyrion and Bran), but no such blatant statement has been made regarding Jon's parentage. In fact, a variety of candidates for Jon's mother have been put forth (with certainty, spoken by different characters at different times), making any theory other than R+L=J the more "obvious" choice.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

The principle difference between your two examples and R+L=J is that in both of those cases it was outrightly stated in the context of the story that XYZ happened (especially in the case of Tyrion and Bran), but no such blatant statement has been made regarding Jon's parentage. In fact, a variety of candidates for Jon's mother have been put forth (with certainty, spoken by different characters at different times), making any theory other than R+L=J the more "obvious" choice.

IMO the |obvious choice" is the one that has the greatest impact on the story.

If Ned is jon's father and the mother is the fisherman's daughter (as suggested by Ser Godric to Davos, what would be the outcome, the impact on the story. Would Jon then say "I will weave a mighty net and trap all of the Others. Then I'll forge an alliance with Euron greyjoy and have him drowen them in the waters off the Iron isles". Probably not. That choice would do nothing to move the story along or create anything interesting.

How about Ned is Jon's father and Ashara Dayne is the mother? (We'll ignore the fact that Ashara killed herself after losing her baby). Jon gets to say "I shall find Dawn and slay all of the Others with its' razor sharp edge." that choice is slightly more interesting, but also leads to a dead end.

IMO, the only choice that is really interesting and moves the story forward by leaps and bounds is R+L=J.

And the only reason it's "obvious" is because a few people figured out the clues and it has become "fact" for everyone who is a fan of the books. It was probably the question that "The Davids" got right when they met with GRRM and he agreed to let them adapt the story. I'm not saying that something else isn't possible, only that in most cases, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

 

[Ursa major]

Re: Jon Snow

To be fair, if the R+L=J formulation becomes accepted in Westeros (including by Jon), it might have the affect you... er... imply. But that doesn't really require it to be true (unless Jon's supposed to be able to survive the attentions of dragons, in which case it might make a difference to how everything turns out).

 

[vanslyke]

Re: Jon Snow

If he is in fact R&L's son where does that put him in the throne succession since Aegon is in fact alive?

 

[TK-421]

Re: Jon Snow

I personally thought that bringing Brienne back to life was too much. I like Brienne, but I don't think her character was important enough to warrant that. And what purpose does UnCat really serve?

I'm with you. Jon is one of my favorite characters, I don't want him to be dead, but I don't want him resurrected, either.

To be fair, we don't know that for sure but based on what we do know from AFFC, Brienne was not dead in her last chapter.

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

I personally thought that bringing Brienne back to life was too much. I like Brienne, but I don't think her character was important enough to warrant that. And what purpose does UnCat really serve?

I'm with you. Jon is one of my favorite characters, I don't want him to be dead, but I don't want him resurrected, either.

As TK said, Brienne was not dead, so she was not brought back . I think Brienne is necessary to Jaime, she is his hope and connection to the good side of him he is trying so hard to find.

If he is in fact R&L's son where does that put him in the throne succession since Aegon is in fact alive?

I think Aegon is older than Jon by a little, making him the heir. But we never really get an exact age for Aegon, just that he was a babe in arms at the time of his "death" but Jon was just a babe too, so don't really know.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

As TK said, Brienne was not dead, so she was not brought back . I think Brienne is necessary to Jaime, she is his hope and connection to the good side of him he is trying so hard to find.
QUOTE]
Great point about Brienne. Jaime's redemption was solely because of her. I'm really rooting for them to "get together"