Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Thank you. You guys are very warm and welcoming.

I'm used to sports forums where everyone's trying to chew off your head.

Hope to be a part of some great GRRM discussions.

I can totally relate to the sports forum thing I used to post on a very large pro basketball (team specific forum) and had to stop because i couldn't stand how horrible everyone was to each other. The thing i love about this board is the respect and civility everyone's shows, not to mention the amazingly smart and knowledgeable posters we have here

Looking forward to seeing you post

 

[TK-421]

Re: Jon Snow

Assuming Jon is the son of R&L. What does anyone think Cersei would do or how she would react to finding this out?...We know she wanted (and maybe loved) Rhaegar and dislikes (and maybe hates) Lyanna, so I thought that would be cool to speculate on how she would take that knowledge.

Interesting throught and welcome. But I'm sorry, after ADWD, one can no longer safely assume this.

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

If I'm correct that you're referring to "assuming Jon is the son of R&L" as the part that "one can no longer safely assume"....how so? What we learned in ADWD is that Ned had an affair with Ashara Dayne and that Jon is definitely certainly not the product, because Ashara gave birth to a stillborn girl around the time of Jon's birth and then promptly killed herself. Some brief mention of the possibility of a fisherman's daughter was made, but the timeline doesn't work, and one would have to assume that (since his affair with Ashara was confirmed) Ned spent half of Robert's Rebellion planting bastards in women's wombs even while married to Catelyn. And that doesn't match with Ned's character. A single affair most of us could believe, but it's too much to think that Ned was just another Robert.

So how is it that we can no longer safely assume (or even strongly believe it's possible) that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

If I'm correct that you're referring to "assuming Jon is the son of R&L" as the part that "one can no longer safely assume"....how so? What we learned in ADWD is that Ned had an affair with Ashara Dayne and that Jon is definitely certainly not the product, because Ashara gave birth to a stillborn girl around the time of Jon's birth and then promptly killed herself. Some brief mention of the possibility of a fisherman's daughter was made, but the timeline doesn't work, and one would have to assume that (since his affair with Ashara was confirmed) Ned spent half of Robert's Rebellion planting bastards in women's wombs even while married to Catelyn. And that doesn't match with Ned's character. A single affair most of us could believe, but it's too much to think that Ned was just another Robert.

So how is it that we can no longer safely assume (or even strongly believe it's possible) that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

We can't assume that it was ned that Selmy was referring to. It could have been Brandon, no?

 

[Glaysher]

Re: Jon Snow

We can't assume that it was ned that Selmy was referring to. It could have been Brandon, no?

I've been thinking that it was Brandon and that it was deliberate misdirection on GRRM's part

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

Hmmm....I thought Brandon was already dead by then. Maybe my timelines are mixed up. But if he was referring to Brandon, then Ashara Dayne killed herself before she would've had a chance to have a fling with Ned....and how would anyone have come to the conclusion that they ever were an item?

I do think Ned had an affair. Just the question is with whom. I don't buy the fisherman's daughter. How did he have time to conceive, go off fighting, come back 9 months later and find here "wherever" she ended up, then take the kid with him back to Winterfell? Just doesn't fit.

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

Let me ask you this....

A friend of mine thinks the woman that Bran saw praying to the heart tree for her child to "avenge her" is Lyanna, and the reason she wants the baby to avenge her is because she was raped....by Rhaegar. I think The Imp (or perhaps someone else) suggested the woman praying meant that Lyanna was raped by Aerys, not Rhaegar.

I dunno....I have problems with both theories, but can't completely discount either.

What do you guys think?

 

[LinksterAC]

Re: Jon Snow

Welcome Linkster!

Thanks for the appreciation! I am rather proud of it myself!

Here's hoping you will hang out with us awhile!

First of all, I'd like to beg everyone's forgiveness for the misspelling of any character's name. I've consumed this brilliant epic through audiobook (I drive a lot), so I haven't been exposed to the actual text.

As your theory settles in mind, it's becoming more and more likely that Jon's death will turn out to be similar to what you propose in your theory. The internal workings of the story provide no real red flag to negate your ideas, and plenty of circumstantial evidence to support them.

Stepping outside of that, there is a lot thematically and stylistically that seems to support it cozily as well. We all know about GRRM's penchant for misdirection, and it strikes me that the entire "feel" of Jon's death was reminiscent to that of the Red Wedding. I think GRRM used Robb's death to set up Jon's in the reader's mind. It's brilliant, really. They're both Stark children, with admirable character, that the reader feels emotionally bonded to, who have an ever-growing capability for leadership that make us believe in them as eventual heroes of the tale.

Consider Robb. We are invested in him, in his honesty, his valor, his romance (with Jayne), his surprising tactical ability, and his string of successes over opponents who should cow him (everyone from the GreatJon to Jamie and Tywin Lannister). Jon develops similarly as a character, but with even more promise. From steward, to faux-turncloak, to wildling, to prisoner, to Lord Commander, he displays immense courage, a romantic sentiment, and even more precociousness than his half-brother/cousin.

So, GRRM leverages the finality of Robb's death to magnify the impact of Jon's. We all were forced to confront it when we read those last chapters of ADWD. We can't use the "free pass" that every other writer gives us about how the hero never dies, when the author has proven that he'll kill him.

Instead, we're forced to try to reason it out, which is something I think GRRM also wants from his readers: real emotional and intellectual engagement. I think it's why he provided us with the Varymyr prologue to open the book, whose purpose in ADWD I couldn't really justify or explain until I read Needle's theory. It's there, along with a string of interconnected clues (including Arya's sudden moment as a cat), to lend credence to what will be the explanation of Jon's death in the next book.

Really, I've gotta say it again, nice work Needle.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

First of all, I'd like to beg everyone's forgiveness for the misspelling of any character's name. I've consumed this brilliant epic through audiobook (I drive a lot), so I haven't been exposed to the actual text.

As your theory settles in mind, it's becoming more and more likely that Jon's death will turn out to be similar to what you propose in your theory. The internal workings of the story provide no real red flag to negate your ideas, and plenty of circumstantial evidence to support them.

Stepping outside of that, there is a lot thematically and stylistically that seems to support it cozily as well. We all know about GRRM's penchant for misdirection, and it strikes me that the entire "feel" of Jon's death was reminiscent to that of the Red Wedding. I think GRRM used Robb's death to set up Jon's in the reader's mind. It's brilliant, really. They're both Stark children, with admirable character, that the reader feels emotionally bonded to, who have an ever-growing capability for leadership that make us believe in them as eventual heroes of the tale.

Consider Robb. We are invested in him, in his honesty, his valor, his romance (with Jayne), his surprising tactical ability, and his string of successes over opponents who should cow him (everyone from the GreatJon to Jamie and Tywin Lannister). Jon develops similarly as a character, but with even more promise. From steward, to faux-turncloak, to wildling, to prisoner, to Lord Commander, he displays immense courage, a romantic sentiment, and even more precociousness than his half-brother/cousin.

So, GRRM leverages the finality of Robb's death to magnify the impact of Jon's. We all were forced to confront it when we read those last chapters of ADWD. We can't use the "free pass" that every other writer gives us about how the hero never dies, when the author has proven that he'll kill him.

Instead, we're forced to try to reason it out, which is something I think GRRM also wants from his readers: real emotional and intellectual engagement. I think it's why he provided us with the Varymyr prologue to open the book, whose purpose in ADWD I couldn't really justify or explain until I read Needle's theory. It's there, along with a string of interconnected clues (including Arya's sudden moment as a cat), to lend credence to what will be the explanation of Jon's death in the next book.

Really, I've gotta say it again, nice work Needle.

Great post

Let me add that I also read the audio books, and it took me ages to get most of the names correctly. reading threads here, and referring to online resources (The Tower of the Hand, A Wiki of Ice and Fire, etc) also helped a lot

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

The audio book readers do have 1 advantage though, you at least know how to pronounce names! Some of my favorite characters from years past will always have the wrong name in my head, I would hear the audio or it would be made for film and I am like that's not her name!

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

The audio book readers do have 1 advantage though, you at least know how to pronounce names! Some of my favorite characters from years past will always have the wrong name in my head, I would hear the audio or it would be made for film and I am like that's not her name!

this is basically true, unless you're talking about AFFC, which was not read by Roy, but rather, John Lee, who was terrible in comparison. He got a lot of the names wrong as I remember.

 

[LinksterAC]

Re: Jon Snow

this is basically true, unless you're talking about AFFC, which was not read by Roy, but rather, John Lee, who was terrible in comparison. He got a lot of the names wrong as I remember.

That's true. Lee seemed very melodramatic by comparison.

Dotrice brings great life to the tale, and a lot of authenticity to each character. His renditions of Jorah Mormont, Varys, and especially Tyrion are real highlights. It sucks that he's so old, because by the time Martin releases book seven, Roy will be riding in a Khalasar in the sky, or with the drowned God, or in the warmth of R'hhlor, with The Seven...you get my point.

Back to the pronunciation of names, even Dotrice has shown some inconsistency. Namely, Brienne went from being Brye-een to Bree-enne, the same pronunciation that Lee used.

Also, can someone explain to me why Dany's accent changed, and why Melisandre went from sultry to French?

(Or maybe not. This whole post is kinda off topic.)

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

That's true. Lee seemed very melodramatic by comparison.

Dotrice brings great life to the tale, and a lot of authenticity to each character. His renditions of Jorah Mormont, Varys, and especially Tyrion are real highlights. It sucks that he's so old, because by the time Martin releases book seven, Roy will be riding in a Khalasar in the sky, or with the drowned God, or in the warmth of R'hhlor, with The Seven...you get my point.

Back to the pronunciation of names, even Dotrice has shown some inconsistency. Namely, Brienne went from being Brye-een to Bree-enne, the same pronunciation that Lee used.

Also, can someone explain to me why Dany's accent changed, and why Melisandre went from sultry to French?

(Or maybe not. This whole post is kinda off topic.)

I had posted the exact same thing. It was really upsetting that Roy used Asha Greyjoy's voice for Dany, and some faux French accent for Melisandre. I'm re-reading the book now, and Dany is still VERY hard to listen to.

 

[dragonstone]

Re: Jon Snow

Pronunciation is hard with this series (as with much fantasy literature).
Always had Daenerys as Dane + err (as in error) + iss. Find the TV series Den + air + ees really hard to reconcile with the spelling, and when I thought of Daenerys before I thought of someone really graceful - now, because it rhymes with canary I just keep thinking of a little yellow bird.

Still can't figure out how they "ae" is pronounced more like a solitary "e" and the "e" is pronounced like an "ay" or "ae" sound.

 

[Ursa major]

Re: Jon Snow

If you think that's difficult to understand, dragonstone, try Featherstonehaugh (pronounced Fanshaw), Belvoir (pronounced Beaver) and Cholmondeley (pronounced Chumlee), for example.

 

[dragonstone]

Re: Jon Snow

voldemort in harry potter is meant to have a silent t like the french word.

 

[dragonstone]

Re: Jon Snow

If you think that's difficult to understand, dragonstone, try Featherstonehaugh (pronounced Fanshaw), Belvoir (pronounced Beaver) and Cholmondeley (pronounced Chumlee), for example.

Make courses in phonetics compulsary for all aspiring fantasy writers?

 

[C Of K]

Re: Jon Snow

If you think that's difficult to understand, dragonstone, try Featherstonehaugh (pronounced Fanshaw), Belvoir (pronounced Beaver) and Cholmondeley (pronounced Chumlee), for example.

Is that Gaelic? or something. Never could understand how Sinead becomes Jeannette.

 

[dragonstone]

Re: Jon Snow

Is that Gaelic? or something. Never could understand how Sinead becomes Jeannette.

Can confirm (being Irish) that they are not Gaelic.

As for above Sinéad question, up until recently there was no "J" sound in Irish and the closest thing to a "J" sound was an "Sh" (Sinéad is pronounced Shin Aid). Other examples include the names Seán (now common throughout the world) - a gaelicised version of the French name Jean, Séamus - meaning James, and Siobhán or Siúin - meaning Joanne, Joanna or Joan.

As for the ette part - that was pronounceable but doesn't sound all that Irish.

 

[Eulalia]

Re: Jon Snow

Worcestershire sauce is most troubling.

One solution is for GRRM to write phonetic transciptions for each of the names. Now that it is all in digital it could be read out in a "nice" electonic audio voice in the appendices for those who do not know how to interperet the transciptions.

I thought GRRM was fairly relaxed about how people chose to pronounce the names?? But now that it is all out there in multi media, there has to be a correct version. He could always give alternative pronunciations just to mess with us! It would be fair, since there are a lot of dialects and languages in his worlds. (and ours)

People from the Rock say "Jay me" for Jaime, and people from Braavos say "Hayme"?? Obviously, the people from Pentos? say Seamus. I can see why GRRM wouldn't want to go very far with that!

What's next? Sean Stark? Thantha Thtark? Sanuhsa Suhtaruhkuh?