Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[howsockgothappy]

Re: Jon Snow

So..... about Jon Snow.....

 

[howsockgothappy]

Re: Jon Snow

Oh, by the way, am I the only one having a major Inigo Montoya that-word-I-do-not-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means moment? "In the cold night air the wound was smoking"? Yeah, I just sort of thought... you know.... cold air... steam rising from his notably warmer body, which does happen as anyone who's gotten a nasty cut in the cold would know. A stab wound to the stomach, in particular, would let off steam.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Oh, by the way, am I the only one having a major Inigo Montoya that-word-I-do-not-think-it-means-what-you-think-it-means moment? "In the cold night air the wound was smoking"? Yeah, I just sort of thought... you know.... cold air... steam rising from his notably warmer body, which does happen as anyone who's gotten a nasty cut in the cold would know. A stab wound to the stomach, in particular, would let off steam.

Welcome to the forums

I think that GRRM is a very precise writer, one who agaonizes over even single words. That leads me to believe that if he meant steaming he would have used that word.

 

[C Of K]

Re: Jon Snow

There is also the fact that Wun Wun had gashes on his body, and there is no mention of them smoking at all. So, if it is just some natural occurrence that Jon's wound was smoking, why even bother mentioning it? No. It's likely that something of the strange was going on there. Considering that Melisandre's blood also seems to smoke, even when she is in her quarters, it's a good bet that she has something to do with Jon's wound. I also don't think it a coincidence that the wound that took him down was the one that was smoking.

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

Re: Jon Snow

There is also the fact that Wun Wun had gashes on his body, and there is no mention of them smoking at all. So, if it is just some natural occurrence that Jon's wound was smoking, why even bother mentioning it? No. It's likely that something of the strange was going on there. Considering that Melisandre's blood also seems to smoke, even when she is in her quarters, it's a good bet that she has something to do with Jon's wound. I also don't think it a coincidence that the wound that took him down was the one that was smoking.

I have to agree...I think Mel has finally begun to understand what her fires have been trying to tell her. I think Stannis is probably dead, and she knows this, and Jon is her new hope..I'm thinking Jon will die after he has stopped or stunted The Others progression. I'm hoping after he gets a moment again with Arya (I'm assuming when she returns to Westeros it will be by Eastwatch)

 

[PetyrBaelish]

Re: Jon Snow

Standard Theories

1. Jon is Dead, darn that GRRMartin. Problem: Makes 1000+ pages following development of Jon Snow a complete waste and leaves no compelling PoV characters at the Wall w/ only 2 books left.
2. Jon is badly wounded, but recovers from his wounds. Problem: Such a generic cliff-hanger outcome, why bother.
3. Jon is dead, but will be resurrected by Melisandre. Problem: Resurrections leave beneficiaries wasted half-persons.
4. Jon is dead, but as a warg will jump into dire wolf. Problem: Wolves can't talk, would be cool for a chapter then get boring.

Resolution 4 + 3.
Jon Snow, as a warg, jumps into his wolf leaving his body for dead. He runs with the wolves for a single cool chapter. Melisandre resurrects his seemingly dead body. Jon jumps back from wolf to revived dead body. Since he never really left, he returns to his body with his soul intact, unlike Beric or Catelyn. Complete rebirth convinces Melisandre that he is AA.

 

[Ursa major]

Re: Jon Snow

Welcome, PetyrBaelish!


For various reasons, most of us want a functioning Jon to carry on his narrative and plot work into The Winds of Winter. While I'm currently a supporter of Needle's theory, that we've already seen a combination of Mel's magic and Jon's warging saving Jon from the attack, your idea could very well be another way to achieve a functioning Jon.

It's hard to know whether what you suggest would work, if only because no-one but GRRM knows what's really involved in reviving someone in the Red priest way. However, if we set aside the example of unCat, where the body had been dead for many days, and look instead at Dondarrion, who seemed to survive his various resurrections in quite a good state (considering) it might well work.

On the other hand, if Mel were allowed to act fast enough, John's warging into a wolf (for temporary sanctuary) may not be necessary, which would mean your Option 3 would work.

 

[viZion]

Re: Jon Snow

Standard Theories

1. Jon is Dead, darn that GRRMartin. Problem: Makes 1000+ pages following development of Jon Snow a complete waste and leaves no compelling PoV characters at the Wall w/ only 2 books left.
2. Jon is badly wounded, but recovers from his wounds. Problem: Such a generic cliff-hanger outcome, why bother.
3. Jon is dead, but will be resurrected by Melisandre. Problem: Resurrections leave beneficiaries wasted half-persons.
4. Jon is dead, but as a warg will jump into dire wolf. Problem: Wolves can't talk, would be cool for a chapter then get boring.

Resolution 4 + 3.
Jon Snow, as a warg, jumps into his wolf leaving his body for dead. He runs with the wolves for a single cool chapter. Melisandre resurrects his seemingly dead body. Jon jumps back from wolf to revived dead body. Since he never really left, he returns to his body with his soul intact, unlike Beric or Catelyn. Complete rebirth convinces Melisandre that he is AA.

This is a cool theory. A tad simpler than Needle's, too. I always like simple. Both of your theories rely on Jon warging into another body. For now, let's discount the argument that Jon can't possibly have learned to do this at will in such a short amount of time (although it *is* a good argument). I think Needle has the stronger case because it requires Jon to warg into a non-sentient body. I'm not an expert on the mechanics of warging but it seems like this would be much easier to do and still maintain your "soul" or whatever.

Varamyr's prologue seems to imply that dying and warging into another creature at the moment of your death will cause you to lose control of yourself. I.e. Jon would become a part of Ghost with no hope of getting back out once his body is dead. Sure, his body could be resurrected but I got the feeling that the transformation from human to animal is pretty much instant once your human body dies. Why else would Varamyr try to warg into that woman and not into the closest animal or dead person (weren't there a few scattered around?). I'm sure I've made a few mistakes here in the details so feel free to correct me.

 

[PetyrBaelish]

Re: Jon Snow

Thanks for the welcome Ursa Major and viZion. I think Needle's theory is very creative, but I wonder if it wouldn't require GRRM to go back and explain some new things that lead to that outcome.

I just think that GRRM wants JS to become more involved in The Game, but he can't do that w/o leaving the Watch or losing his honor since he took a vow to serve his whole life. But if he dies, then the oath is completed and he can join the Game, honor intact.

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

Thanks for the welcome Ursa Major and viZion. I think Needle's theory is very creative, but I wonder if it wouldn't require GRRM to go back and explain some new things that lead to that outcome.

I just think that GRRM wants JS to become more involved in The Game, but he can't do that w/o leaving the Watch or losing his honor since he took a vow to serve his whole life. But if he dies, then the oath is completed and he can join the Game, honor intact.

Welcome Petyr!

I stand by my theory no matter what but I really don't think GRRM would need to explain much, if anything. Once Jon withdraws from the body we can assume the glamour will be removed as well. So when a corpse that is not Jon's suddenly appears in front of everyone, they will figure it out!

As I have said before (regulars bear with me!) I see a big problem with any type of "true" resurrection. The North and most in it follow the old Gods, any resurrection by Rhallor's priest may cost Jon the Northmen who may well view him as an Other afterward. Wargs are okay, reanimated bodies, even if they were once someone you trusted, not so much! To use one is one thing, to be one, quite another.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Re: Jon Snow

I don't think he is dead. As was said before, Melisandre probably offered Jon a way out, so that he can take out the Boltons. I believe that Melisandre knows damn well that the North cannot function with a lord like Roose Bolton. Even if he somehow manages to appease the grumbling lords, there is still Ramsay. One day, he will go too far and cause open revolt. Maybe Melisandre has seen this.

So, in order to facilitate action being taken, Jon, already wary of the possibility of being murdered just as the Old Bear was, agreed to the plan and had a glamour placed on someone. You know who? I believe one of the Wights they kept in the cellar! They're expendable corpses. Jon wargs one of the corpses, Melisandre glamours it to look like Jon and Bob's your uncle, you've got a Jon-looking expendable corpse. Now, of course, those of you who think "But Syphon, wouldn't warging cause Jon's deathonce his vessel were destroyed?" Yes. But he would pull out when the knife came. After all, Melisandre saw it coming.

But why go through all this trouble? Simple. This frees Jon up for taking action to restore the North without actually being away from the Wall. And how did they cook up this scheme? This was because Melisandre saw the attack in the flames and they decided that this was a chance to take advantage of a potentially problematic situation.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

I don't think he is dead. As was said before, Melisandre probably offered Jon a way out, so that he can take out the Boltons. I believe that Melisandre knows damn well that the North cannot function with a lord like Roose Bolton. Even if he somehow manages to appease the grumbling lords, there is still Ramsay. One day, he will go too far and cause open revolt. Maybe Melisandre has seen this.

So, in order to facilitate action being taken, Jon, already wary of the possibility of being murdered just as the Old Bear was, agreed to the plan and had a glamour placed on someone. You know who? I believe one of the Wights they kept in the cellar! They're expendable corpses. Jon wargs one of the corpses, Melisandre glamours it to look like Jon and Bob's your uncle, you've got a Jon-looking expendable corpse. Now, of course, those of you who think "But Syphon, wouldn't warging cause Jon's deathonce his vessel were destroyed?" Yes. But he would pull out when the knife came. After all, Melisandre saw it coming.

But why go through all this trouble? Simple. This frees Jon up for taking action to restore the North without actually being away from the Wall. And how did they cook up this scheme? This was because Melisandre saw the attack in the flames and they decided that this was a chance to take advantage of a potentially problematic situation.

And not to be forgotten is there is a decree floating around where the King in the North made Jon the heir to Winterfell.

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

Re: Jon Snow

And not to be forgotten is there is a decree floating around where the King in the North made Jon the heir to Winterfell.

I've been wondering about that for a while now too...but I really don't see Jon ever being the Lord of Winterfell, I have a feeling he is dead, and I mean that Beric style, where he will live just long enough to be the hero (and maybe see Arya again) and finally die knowing who he truly is (who his mother is and possibly father) and maybe even have a smile on his face.

 

[Gry Wnd]

Re: Jon Snow

Standard Theories

1. Jon is Dead, darn that GRRMartin. Problem: Makes 1000+ pages following development of Jon Snow a complete waste and leaves no compelling PoV characters at the Wall w/ only 2 books left.
2. Jon is badly wounded, but recovers from his wounds. Problem: Such a generic cliff-hanger outcome, why bother.
3. Jon is dead, but will be resurrected by Melisandre. Problem: Resurrections leave beneficiaries wasted half-persons.
4. Jon is dead, but as a warg will jump into dire wolf. Problem: Wolves can't talk, would be cool for a chapter then get boring.

Resolution 4 + 3.
Jon Snow, as a warg, jumps into his wolf leaving his body for dead. He runs with the wolves for a single cool chapter. Melisandre resurrects his seemingly dead body. Jon jumps back from wolf to revived dead body. Since he never really left, he returns to his body with his soul intact, unlike Beric or Catelyn. Complete rebirth convinces Melisandre that he is AA.

Or he wargs into one of the Dead guys in the wall until she fixes him up. In the prologue there were some references into taking over a body, and how hard it was if because the person could fight you off. But those two are dead so...

Not buying Needles theory because I just think that it is a "hacky" type of trick if you are writing a POV and omit a important link in the characters chapter without any hints what so ever. In between the letter and the speech he is accounted for so I think it would be amature to then say oh but in between these sentences he went and saw Mel. Doesn't seem right..

 

[deathstar]

Re: Jon Snow

agree with gry wnd here about needles theory, yes it is interesting and creative but just doesnt sit right. I think Jon needs to be re-born someway, somehow for him to be able to fight the others more effectively

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Not buying Needles theory because I just think that it is a "hacky" type of trick if you are writing a POV and omit a important link in the characters chapter without any hints what so ever. In between the letter and the speech he is accounted for so I think it would be amature to then say oh but in between these sentences he went and saw Mel. Doesn't seem right..

agree with gry wnd here about needles theory, yes it is interesting and creative but just doesnt sit right. I think Jon needs to be re-born someway, somehow for him to be able to fight the others more effectively

We know from the Varamyr chapter that when a warg's body dies the warg is no longer a warg. My interpretation of that is dead for a second, a minute or an hour. If you want to embrace a theory that involves Jon no longer being a warg, that's fine, but if you think that jon will go forward in the story as a warg, and has a big part to play in the end game, then Needle's theory works. If you can come up with an alternative have at it.

Or perhaps you can just believe Jon is actually dead.

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

Or he wargs into one of the Dead guys in the wall until she fixes him up. In the prologue there were some references into taking over a body, and how hard it was if because the person could fight you off. But those two are dead so...

Not buying Needles theory because I just think that it is a "hacky" type of trick if you are writing a POV and omit a important link in the characters chapter without any hints what so ever. In between the letter and the speech he is accounted for so I think it would be amature to then say oh but in between these sentences he went and saw Mel. Doesn't seem right..

agree with gry wnd here about needles theory, yes it is interesting and creative but just doesnt sit right. I think Jon needs to be re-born someway, somehow for him to be able to fight the others more effectively

Sorry guys but from GRRM, who rarely if ever gives us a real time line, things overlap and go back and forth all the time, he himself has said some POV chapters may cover an hour and others months yet he never says outright how long anything took, just the fact that he states outright "They talked for two hours." is highly suspicious all by itself! I don't buy that anything from him is that simple. Jon's time is not accounted for or too neatly accounted for which ever way you want to look at it.

When Jon killed Orell, he fled to his eagle and there he stayed, he could not warg out. When Varamyr was dying he fled to Thistle, and there he stayed, he could not warg. There were animals near and others all around, if he could have still warged I have to believe he would have rather than die in Thistle. Jon can not warg to another body, animal or human, and allow his body to die. The body dies, Jon can no longer warg. Granted we do not have a way to know for sure that he could not go back if the body is brought back but the knowledge we do have says not! Plus as already stated an Un-dead Jon is an Other, not leadership material.

 

[TK-421]

Re: Jon Snow

I don't know if you covered this angle as well. Could Jon have warged unintentionally? What I mean is that as almost reflex or survival instinct taking over, he warged into the dead bodies in the ice cells without being concious of it.

The clue is that he feels the stabbing and then it all turns to cold, meaning he warged into the dead bodies in the ice cells. When he dreams, its uncontrolled so why would this not be the same idea.

Alternatively, is that he had help from Melissandre to warg through some spell of some sorts.

I don't like the idea of him warging into those dead bodies but it is a definite possibility because why would they been introduced if they served no purpose at all in the plot unless they are deliberate red herring from GRRM. So, I am trying to rectify it in my head and this is the only way it makes sense to me.

 

[C Of K]

Re: Jon Snow

Hmm. Something I never considered before. If Jon was in a dead body, would he feel the cold? I can't remember if Cold Hands had that problem. I do remember that he didn't seem to need to eat or sleep.

It could be, that if Jon was already in one of the dead bodies when attacked, he felt cold upon reverting back into a living body.

 

[Koopa]

Re: Jon Snow

Well, in any case it's past time Jon visits the tombs beneath Winterfell.
As such Bolton's summons, and his 'death' comes in handy in many ways.
Or it's just wishful thinking, not wanting Jon to be dead.