Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Samwell]

Re: Jon Snow

@ The IMP: Thanks you.
The "solors" thing was a slip. But it's a valid point,nonetheless.

Can't be too sure about bigger fires... Given the magnitude of the Doom, all old Valryians and their dragons were roasted. But I dont think such a deus ex machina will work in Dany's case. So yeah, she stands fireproof. But the cold of winter, especially when the Others come? Jon stands a better chance.

 

[Koopa]

Re: Jon Snow

So yeah, she stands fireproof

If this nonsense continues to go on, i really am gonna make a bolded thread with one message and one message alone.

DANAERYS IS NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE

It was a one-time thing. No repeat! Next fire, she IS toast.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

If this nonsense continues to go on, i really am gonna make a bolded thread with one message and one message alone.

DANAERYS IS NOT IMMUNE TO FIRE

It was a one-time thing. No repeat! Next fire, she IS toast.

I agree, Kiwi, but I don't think the idea of the whole magical event of Dany not being burned by the fire that burned Drogo and hatched the dragon eggs was ever stated by GRRM. Dany has never been burned by fire, so it's reasonable for people to make the assumption that she is "fireproof". I think the topic IS threadworthy, and i encourage you to start it.

Throw another dragon egg on the barby for me, mate

 

[snaggletoooth]

Re: Jon Snow

Why is it important whether or not Danaerys is inflammable? What future developments do you see hinging on this? Just curious. I always assumed all Targaryens were "fireproof" but now I'm rethinking that thanks to the posts above.

 

[snaggletoooth]

Re: Jon Snow

I've been wondering about that for a while now too...but I really don't see Jon ever being the Lord of Winterfell, I have a feeling he is dead, and I mean that Beric style, where he will live just long enough to be the hero (and maybe see Arya again) and finally die knowing who he truly is (who his mother is and possibly father) and maybe even have a smile on his face.

And plus there's really not that much of Winterfell left to be a Lord of, right?

 

[Koopa]

Re: Jon Snow

Actually most of Winterfell is still intact. Stones as Stannis reminded Jon of don't burn that easily. It's mostly the timber, drapings, and so on that are gone.
Especially since Roose had at least the decency to partly rebuild in aDwD what Ramsay destroyed.

I do agree with Jon never becoming Lord of Winterfell.
I'm thinking that's Rickon's job, who seems most northly out of the male Stark children.

As for Dany, i definitely recall her dodging the fire and getting blisters last time around, during one of her latter chapters. The targs having a higher heat tolerance/affinity then other humans i agree with. But no more then that.

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

Actually most of Winterfell is still intact. Stones as Stannis reminded Jon of don't burn that easily. It's mostly the timber, drapings, and so on that are gone.
Especially since Roose had at least the decency to partly rebuild in aDwD what Ramsay destroyed.

I do agree with Jon never becoming Lord of Winterfell.
I'm thinking that's Rickon's job, who seems most northly out of the male Stark children.

As for Dany, i definitely recall her dodging the fire and getting blisters last time around, during one of her latter chapters. The targs having a higher heat tolerance/affinity then other humans i agree with. But no more then that.

I'll agree about Rickon. Jon will never be lord of Winterfell. As for Dany, which passage are you referring to?

This is from AGOT:

"With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.

"The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.

"When the fire died at last and the ground became cool enough to walk upon, Ser Jorah Mormont found her amidst the ashes, surrounded by blackened logs and bits of glowing ember and the burnt bones of man and woman and stallion. She was naked, covered with soot, her clothes turned to ash, her beautiful hair all crisped away . . . yet she was unhurt."

Surely you could understand why, given that description, people would think she was at least highly resistant to fire? I agree that doesn't firmly establish that she's "fireproof", but I'm not sure why you say "next fire she's toast" either.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Why is it important whether or not Danaerys is inflammable? What future developments do you see hinging on this? Just curious. I always assumed all Targaryens were "fireproof" but now I'm rethinking that thanks to the posts above.

It matters because it's interesting, given the fact that Viserys died as a result of molten gold being poured over his head, and Dany was able to walk into a funeral pyre and emerge enscathed except for her hair. It also matters given that Quentyn Martell got incinerated. Could the same thing happen to Dany? Lastly, it's obviously importany becuase of the bolded part of your quoted post, and the fact that you now see that you held an erroneous beleif.

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

Re: Jon Snow

It matters because it's interesting, given the fact that Viserys died as a result of molten gold being poured over his head, and Dany was able to walk into a funeral pyre and emerge enscathed except for her hair. It also matters given that Quentyn Martell got incinerated. Could the same thing happen to Dany? Lastly, it's obviously importany becuase of the bolded part of your quoted post, and the fact that you now see that you held an erroneous beleif.

I agree. I always got the vibe from reading ASoIaF that Dany was one of the biggest characters (if not the mainest character) and anything that happens with her matters a lot. I used to think maybe she would marry Jon Snow somehow (her and Jon being the vanquishers of the others) but then I realized she hates the Starks so I don't know now.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

I agree. I always got the vibe from reading ASoIaF that Dany was one of the biggest characters (if not the mainest character) and anything that happens with her matters a lot. I used to think maybe she would marry Jon Snow somehow (her and Jon being the vanquishers of the others) but then I realized she hates the Starks so I don't know now.

I've always held the belief that the story will be about the unification of Ice and Fire. Jon may very well be the embodiment of that unification if R+L=J is true. The 3 heads of the dragon may end up being Dany, one of the Stark children, and Jon, being part Targ and part Stark.

 

[Koopa]

Re: Jon Snow

Surely you could understand why, given that description, people would think she was at least highly resistant to fire? I agree that doesn't firmly establish that she's "fireproof", but I'm not sure why you say "next fire she's toast" either.

Even when i read it, i myself never got the vibe that she could not be harmed from fire. It was obviously a magic ritual. And whilst targaryens have shown to be more tolerant of heat, they are also shown throughout the series to be very humane. As such i'm pretty sure that should Danaerys be stupid enough to walk into a flaming building and remain there, she is a dead person.
Her dodging the flames, and having blisters is found in A dance With Dragons.

As for Dany's hatred towards the Starks... well let's say that in many ways she is still a child. Or at least a pubescent teenager. No doubt she'll have some growing up to do in the next few books. It's baffling how she 'overlooks' the madness of her own father, the reasons behind the rebellion, ... . I can't help but feel she purposely ignores certain finer details. Just the way Barristan purposely fails to point them out to her, and shirks the truth. I hope she never gets together with Jon, for various reasons, one of them being that i think little of Dany, hero she may eventually turn out to be. I still say the world is better of without the targs and their dragons. The generations of incest, the arrogance, the sheer stupidity, the.... just does not sit well with me. Yeah, i really don't like dany. Even viserys was preferable since his madnes was somewhat endearing. His antics at least made sense.

 

[Samwell]

Re: Jon Snow

I still say the world is better of without the targs and their dragons. The generations of incest, the arrogance, the sheer stupidity, the.... just does not sit well with me. Yeah, i really don't like dany. Even viserys was preferable since his madnes was somewhat endearing. His antics at least made sense.

A preference for Viserys is a bit extreme... but I agree with you. Dany is not at all a likeable character. Probably that's the thing GRRM wants to show with her and her dragons. Everyone sees the dragons as wish-fulfillment tools and short-cuts to a revolutionary transformation; revolutions never work. They end up creating new problems like oppressive regimes at Astapor and Yunkai; and an egotistical despot like Dany. The untold tale of old Valyria, and the older Targs (including Rhaegar) who tried to roost their dragons but died miserable deaths, are important reminders as well.

Dany might suffer the fate of Quentyn Martell, but then, she might not. She is too important a character to be disposed of in that way. She lacks his innocence as well. Singe her fingers while sipping a hot cup of wine atop the Wall with Jon? Yes. Her legs get scalded by Drogon's breath while Drogon tries to chase unGregor at Kings Landing? Perhaps. She gets roasted? Very doubtful.

 

[Ursa major]

Re: Jon Snow

Even when i read it, i myself never got the vibe that she could not be harmed from fire. It was obviously a magic ritual. And whilst targaryens have shown to be more tolerant of heat, they are also shown throughout the series to be very humane. As such i'm pretty sure that should Danaerys be stupid enough to walk into a flaming building and remain there, she is a dead person.

I think that's right. The fire was real:

And then there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts.

The fact that her hair was burnt off supports this.

So it does seem more likely that the magic by which the dragons were born from stone eggs provided protection for the living parts of Dany (e.g. not her hair) from the flames and that everything else, save for the three dragons, was consumed.


This, though, still begs the question of whether Dany is immune to her dragons' flames. However, it does suggest that this magic is in direct opposition to that the Others use: theirs fails in the face of fire.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

The generations of incest, the arrogance, the sheer stupidity, the.... just does not sit well with me. Yeah, i really don't like dany. Even viserys was preferable since his madnes was somewhat endearing. His antics at least made sense.

I think Dany is an atypical Targ. She's clearly compassionate, she clearly has been willing put think about the bigger picture and put her own self-interests on the back burner, and she clearly is basically a good person. Dany planning the freeing of the slaves and ultimately doing it was for me one of the stellar moments in this series. She's made some really poor decsions in aDWD, but she's always tried to to the right thing and act for the greater good. come on now.


Viserys? Endearing?

Viserys was insane, arrogant, self-centered, abusive, and clueless. He sold his sister for the possibility of taking the iron throne. IMO he would have been Mad Aerys returned.

 

[Koopa]

Re: Jon Snow

Viserys from strain of raising his sister, retaking his kingdom, and being dead poor and laughed at everywhere he went and from the taint within the lineage was an ever growing arrogant madman who was destined for ultimate failure from the word go. Plus,I don't he actually managed to kill anyone ever with his antics. How as he not endearing.

When Dany is not destracted by various things or her mind befuddled with her own greatness does try to do the right thing. Problem is, she ain't good at it. I wouldn't be surprised if the deathtoll that has come about from her actions was as high as the entire deathtoll of the war in westeros. She has been a walking disaster. The world trembles before her indeed. One would almost want her to be insane, so as to give her an excuse.

 

[Samwell]

Re: Jon Snow

Viserys is a scum, agreed. And Dany is basically a good person, no doubt. But the trouble appears whenever she tries to be a leader. The trouble of trying to be a benevolent despot, and forcing what one believes to be right on others. Does Dany have the right to kill people to further her experiments with the dragons so that she lay claim to a continent she has never seen? Just because she believes it belongs to her through her "noble" bloodline and her successful fire experiment with three dragon eggs? She doesn't.

Let me explain my point. The Braavosi fought their captors, escaped, and set up their free city (whatever its demerits- the bravos, the blood feud at the death of princes, the cult of banker-assassins, etc.). Danys comes serving quick freedom to the "lamb people", to Meereen, Yunkai, and Astapor-leading her dragons and her faithful along the way like, to make an apparently unseeming comparison, Napoleon bringing the concepts of "liberty, equality, and fraternity" to the populace of Europe. The slaves she frees look up to her as a deity; when in reality she is a good, but a really proud, adamant, and selfish teenager. Slaves learn best about freedom when they free themselves; they learn nothing of freedom when someone serves them freedom on a platter. Dany chose the easier way: the short-cut formula.

Short cuts don't work. At least never in societies and with people. The best solitary dragonrider, the fiercest direwolf with the best of intentions cannot usher in revolutions. They tend to fail, burn out, or die.

As Ned Stark used to say: "When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." Jon thinks of the pack and the big picture, Tyrion used to before he killed his pa, Varys does it in his own scheming way. Dany doesn't. I wish she did, though.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Viserys from strain of raising his sister, retaking his kingdom, and being dead poor and laughed at everywhere he went and from the taint within the lineage was an ever growing arrogant madman who was destined for ultimate failure from the word go. Plus,I don't he actually managed to kill anyone ever with his antics. How as he not endearing.

When Dany is not destracted by various things or her mind befuddled with her own greatness does try to do the right thing. Problem is, she ain't good at it. I wouldn't be surprised if the deathtoll that has come about from her actions was as high as the entire deathtoll of the war in westeros. She has been a walking disaster. The world trembles before her indeed. One would almost want her to be insane, so as to give her an excuse.

Do you mean pathetic, or perhaps tragic, rather than endearing?

 

[Koopa]

Re: Jon Snow

No, Viserys is such a failure both as a person and in everything he does that as a character (not in real life) he becomes endearing. Because he's so pathetic you just can't help but smile. Like a two-headed cat that is so ugly that after a while you'd think it's cute.

 

[viZion]

Re: Jon Snow

This, though, still begs the question of whether Dany is immune to her dragons' flames.

I've been on a roll lately working purely from memory so I'm going to continue until I'm wrong. That said, I seem to remember Dany being bald and hairless but otherwise without any burn marks from her time spent hanging out with Drogon in the middle of nowhere. Maybe she hasn't been hit by a direct flame from Drogon's mouth but at the very least, the heat radiating off of him isn't enough to damage her but is still enough to burn off her hair. I.e. her living parts are still intact and her "dead" parts are gone.

But, yeah, this is from memory so call me out if I'm wrong!

 

[No One]

Re: Jon Snow

To go back a bit in this discussion:

Sorry if this has been said before and for the slight derailment (seeing as I don’t think there’s a connection here to Jon’s story or Winterfell), but am I the only one who thinks this talk of a 'stone dragon' is being taken a little too literally? Might it be referring to, say, the rise of a new - or old - seat of power like, er, Dragonstone?

Or am I missing/forgetting some more specific clues on this point?