Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Mesanna]

Re: Jon Snow

I'd say that you are an exception then Juleska, though you may have had a slight advantage from watching the TV show. Most people are oblivious on first read. For me, there were so many names and so much to take in first time round, that I missed it completely. On second read - after I knew about it - yes it seemed obvious. But everything does in retrospect.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Re: Jon Snow

You know what I noticed? Whenever people promise to talk with Jon when they return, they end up dying.

Ned says something to the effect of "We'll talk when I get back from King's Landing" and promptly got beheaded. Benjen, too, said something like that before he went out on the Ranging where he went missing. At this rate, we'll never know who Jon's parents are.

But Howland Reed is probably going to tell us something if we ever meet him. Or perhaps his children. I wouldn't be surprised if he could....oh my god...
....
....
....
I need to find evidence, but...woah.

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

I'd say that you are an exception then Juleska, though you may have had a slight advantage from watching the TV show. Most people are oblivious on first read. For me, there were so many names and so much to take in first time round, that I missed it completely. On second read - after I knew about it - yes it seemed obvious. But everything does in retrospect.

Actually I didn't watch the show, only heard of it from friends. I live in the Philippines and currently work in Afghanistan so....no HBO for me. I just picked up the book to see what all the fuss was about and was instantly hooked.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Re: Jon Snow

I wouldn't call R+L=J "obvious". It's obvious because people have had over a decade to reread the series and pick up all the small clues. I'd wager (generously) less than 1/10 of people reading for the first time through come even remotely close to it.

I agree. I just finished reading the series for the first time a few weeks ago and the possibility certainly didn't occur to me. Then again, I can't say I actually spent any amount of time wondering about Jon's parentage either. From the beginning, I just assumed GRRM would reveal it at some point (if it was even relevant) and then didn't think about it again.

Also I think I just want Jon to be the trueborn son of Rhaegar. The revelation that he's not a ******* afterall would add rather a lot of vindication to the character and open some real character development.

That's a good point, and I would tend to agree. The only problem is, how do we explain the fact that Jon has been repeatedly described as looking distinctly Stark-ish? In fact, that was part of the fact that irked Catelyn; that Ned's "*******" looks more like him than the trueborn sons she gave him.

 

[Weirwood]

Re: Jon Snow

Everyone keeps saying Jon look slike a Stark but this passage in AGOT, right after Eddard dispenses justice to the Crow that ran rather directly states the opposite;

"No," Jon Snow said quietly. "It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark." Jon’s eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong and fast.

GRRM obviously has to describe his characters to us so we can identify with them and build our own mental images to match his words, but he's pointedly made it clear that they are not alike.

BUT

While i've been looking fo rmore clues i've found some that cut my arguments down and reinforce the R+L=J theory. The first is where Catalyn fumes about Jon.

Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him.

Ned rose and paced the length of the room. "If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself... no, I will not believe that." Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert’s talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

This is Ned's recollection and from his POV so its clear that he belives Rhaegar's son was dead. My theory crumbles to dust.

 

[Ursa major]

Re: Jon Snow

Jon and Robb do not resemble each other because Jon looks like a Stark and Robb like a Tully.

 

[Tansy]

Re: Jon Snow

Ursa beat me to it, Jon looks like Benjen, Arya and Lyanna while Robb looks like Sansa and Catelyn and the Tully's

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Re: Jon Snow

What about Rickon? He is always left out.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Re: Jon Snow

I guess because he was a small child, there's not much to say about him.

Except that he (and Shaggydog) have a tendency to throw tantrums...

 

[juleska]

Re: Jon Snow

What about Rickon? He is always left out.

It's said repeatedly through GOT that all the Stark children except Arya favor their mother very strongly, which is why it pisses Catelyn off so much that Jon looks so much like Ned.

 

[Boaz]

Re: Jon Snow

SPOILERS from ADWD and speculation upon the origins of Jon Snow.

I am now seriously leaning to A+L=J, until Wert and Raven convince me otherwise. I know I've stated this before, but I have one or two small new additions to bolster the theory.

I am sold that Lyanna is Jon's mother. He looks like a Stark. Lyanna begged Eddard for something from her deathbed. Lyanna died in the south upon a bed of blood. Eddard returned from the war with her bones and with Jon. Eddard returned her bones, but was still haunted by "promise me, Ned" fifteen years later... Jon was fifteen when the story opened.

We know that Lyanna and Rhaegar had an affinity for each other. But we also know that Rhaegar was already married. We also know that Rhaegar was nothing if not honorable. Why would he secretly elope with a daughter of one of the peers of the realm? It would make more sense to openly marry her to heal the strife between King's Landing and Winterfell. Why would he ever abduct and rape Lyanna? That would have been out of character for him, but not for his father... the Mad King.

Aerys II was mentally unstable by even the accounts of his closest friends. In ASOS, Jaime remembers that Aerys raped his wife Rhaella... and got her pregnant with Dany. In fact, the rape was so vicious that Rhaella was seen to have been clawed, bitten, and beaten so badly that she needed acute medical attention. In ADWD, Barristan confesses that Aerys was infatuated with Joanna Lannister. I think Aerys raped Joanna (or mayhaps had an affair with her) and that Tyrion was the result.

I think Aerys raped Lyanna Stark... I think he beat her so badly that Rhaegar took her from King's Landing so that no one would see her. How do you explain to a peer of the realm that you let his daughter be beaten and raped while in your care? I think Rhaegar decided then and there to remove Aerys II from power.

Remember that Jaime asked Rhaegar to ride with him to the Trident, but Rhaegar told him no... Rhaegar told Jaime that he'd come back and call a great council of all the lords and that he would set things right.

But Brandon Stark got word of Lyanna's disappearance... and all hell broke loose.

Aerys+Lyanna+Jon.

 

[Gry Wnd]

Re: Jon Snow

Um, that is a theory hinging on another theory

SPOILER if u haven't finished ADWD don't read


That he isn't dead, and that he is not coming back as unJon. I just think that those "uns" don't have souls. They are not really themselves and I don't see an "un" as a head of the dragon, plus with little Griff, and Tyrion both these theory' s can't be right unless you think little Griff has a quick exit.

I like the A+L=J change up though

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

Boaz, Boaz! Why must you always upset my apple cart with sense!

The romantic girl in me MUST stick with the R+L=J theory. The problem with that is A+L=J is sounding more true all the time!

However I can't go with UnJon! GW is correct in that one of the heads of the dragon, which I still believe he will be, can't be an Un.

 

[Mesanna]

Re: Jon Snow

SPOILERS FROM ADWD AHEAD .........

So what about the bit where Davos is talking to Lord Godric and he says Ned Stark visited once and got a fisherwoman pregnant. Just another red herring (ha!) from GRRM?

I didn't really buy it, cos I'm too sold on R+J=J, however between that and the comments BFS makes about Joanna Lannister, I have come to the conclusion that GRRM spends all his free time reading the fan forums and inserts random sentences like these for the sole purpose of messing with the heads of his readers!

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

SPOILERS FROM ADWD AHEAD .........

So what about the bit where Davos is talking to Lord Godric and he says Ned Stark visited once and got a fisherwoman pregnant. Just another red herring (ha!) from GRRM?

I didn't really buy it, cos I'm too sold on R+J=J, however between that and the comments BFS makes about Joanna Lannister, I have come to the conclusion that GRRM spends all his free time reading the fan forums and inserts random sentences like these for the sole purpose of messing with the heads of his readers!

I think GRRM is reading all our ramblings and crackpot theories, from which he will pick his favorite and make it happen!!

 

[Bazza]

Re: Jon Snow

SPOILERS FROM ADWD AHEAD .........

So what about the bit where Davos is talking to Lord Godric and he says Ned Stark visited once and got a fisherwoman pregnant. Just another red herring (ha!) from GRRM?

I didn't really buy it, cos I'm too sold on R+J=J, however between that and the comments BFS makes about Joanna Lannister, I have come to the conclusion that GRRM spends all his free time reading the fan forums and inserts random sentences like these for the sole purpose of messing with the heads of his readers!

I had that same gut feeling too Mesanna. But he has spent the entire book building up Tyrion's infatuation with fire and dragons.

 

[Bazza]

Re: Jon Snow

We know that Lyanna and Rhaegar had an affinity for each other. But we also know that Rhaegar was already married. We also know that Rhaegar was nothing if not honorable. Why would he secretly elope with a daughter of one of the peers of the realm? It would make more sense to openly marry her to heal the strife between King's Landing and Winterfell. Why would he ever abduct and rape Lyanna? That would have been out of character for him, but not for his father... the Mad King.

You make a very good argument Boaz, I'm intrigued. But to play devil's advocate to one of your points, GRRM never paints truly honorable, blazing white characters. Everyone has their flaws. If Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna, he may have chosen love over honor as Eddard Stark did with Sansa and Lyanna. However, you are right. I don't think he would elope with her. Mayhaps he did not secretly elope with her, but more likely had a one night stand in the fields surrounding Harrenhall. Realizing they could never be, they parted ways.

Lyanna may have went to him only after when she started showing, and that's when he took her south to hide/protect her until she birthed realizing Jon could be TPTWP. Maybe she was kidnapped? I don't think marrying her was a plan. He couldn't marry her if Elia was still alive. Elia died after Rhaegar died. Also, Daenerys describes Rhaegar as dieing for the woman he loved. If he loved her, he wouldn't rape her, I think it was consensual and spur of the moment.

In the spirit of your argument however. What if Rhaegar brought back Lyanna without a lustful coupling in the fields at the tourney of Harrenhall? Aerys was quite wroth that the mystery knight had disappeared, perhaps the lustful coupling that then occurred was not so consensual.

 

[IlliferThePenniless]

Re: Jon Snow

In ADwD we also hear that Elia wouldn't have survived another child birth. So if Rheagar thought he needed another child to fulfill the prophecies, he would have needed to look else where. I'm sticking with R+L=J.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Re: Jon Snow

In ADWD, Barristan confesses that Aerys was infatuated with Joanna Lannister. I think Aerys raped Joanna (or mayhaps had an affair with her) and that Tyrion was the result.

I could be sold on that possibility - the timing has already been considered, though I can't remember how it turned out.

A+L=J just has too much of a ring of desperation about it, though.

Remember, the series is A Song of Fire and Ice - Dany is the fire, Jon the ice. That's how it's always seemed, though the connection between them uncertain other than R+L=J.

She cannot bear children and Jon's sworn to not have anything, which I find an interesting connection. Even in a romantic version where they married and wed and brought peace to Westeros, there could be no heirs.

 

[Rolynd]

Re: Jon Snow

I could be sold on that possibility - the timing has already been considered, though I can't remember how it turned out.

A+L=J just has too much of a ring of desperation about it, though.

Remember, the series is A Song of Fire and Ice - Dany is the fire, Jon the ice. That's how it's always seemed, though the connection between them uncertain other than R+L=J.

She cannot bear children and Jon's sworn to not have anything, which I find an interesting connection. Even in a romantic version where they married and wed and brought peace to Westeros, there could be no heirs.[/QUOTE]


Disagree with that, think Dany had a miscarriage towards the end of ADWD, her period was much heavier than usual...why would GRRM just randomly mention that Dany was having a heavy period? No, it was a miscarriage definitely...someone pointed out on a different thread that Miri Maz Dur's prophecy had come to pass in an abstract sense - sun sets in the west (that dornish boy getting toasted - the sigil of dorne is the sun) and the other ones that I can't remember as well!