Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[The Imp]

However, this does not explain the fact that Warging has always been into living creatures, never a re-animated corpse, nor does it explain the steaming of the wound as I mentioned before. It is for these two reasons that I believe the theory of his Warging into a dead body is not what happened, as stated in my post above.

Using the Varamyr prologue as a "rulebook" for warging, I see no reason that Jon couldn't warg into a resurrected body. Obviously, there's no way of knowing for sure, but since there is nothing that would suggest that it isn't true, and given how well the idea fits into this theory, I'm choosing to believe that such a thing is possible, and in fact, an integral part of the scenario.

We can agree to disagree

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

With all due respect, you may not be grasping all of the fine points of the theory. jon's thoughts are 100% accurate and true because Jon has warged into the glamoured corpse, or perhaps the corpse was glamoured after jon warged into it. In any case, Jon is residing in the body that has been glamoured to look like him. We have his thoughts as the stabbing occurs becuase jon is being stabbed, although it's not his actual body. Jon returns to his own body at the end of the chapter, hence

Sorry, I didn't mean to say jon's thoughts weren't accurate or anything, just that we didn't see him warg into the corpse. If needles theory holds true, then:
A) there is a big gap in Jon's memory mid chapter, which is unlikely IMO
B) he was already in the glamoured corpse before the chapter begins (which I admit is a possibility if he had decided to heed Mels advice and start taking precautions)
or
C) he was unaware that Mel was doing something along these lines.

 

[Needle]

Fungous, I’m glad you liked it!

Now the answers to your points as I see them.

Jon previously stated he brought those bodies back in order to get to know the enemy. How, besides warging them, is he to learn anything more than they already know?

Wights contain some form of life, they have to, dead things don’t usually walk, kill, or remember.

A wight is not a human being! The rules against humans do not apply.
Very cold things “smoke” too. Just open up your freezer for proof of this.

 

[Fungous]

Using the Varamyr prologue as a "rulebook" for warging, I see no reason that Jon couldn't warg into a resurrected body. Obviously, there's no way of knowing for sure, but since there is nothing that would suggest that it isn't true, and given how well the idea fits into this theory, I'm choosing to believe that such a thing is possible, and in fact, an integral part of the scenario.

We can agree to disagree

LOL, sounds good to me

 

[grip junky]

By those standing in the way I mean those who refuse to believe the real enemy is on the way.

We know the Others are coming. They are also picking off the wildlings as they go. Anyone killed by a wright seems to become one. Dead wildings to add to their army.

Those "standing in the way" are so, to use a phrase of Anne McCaffery, hide bound that they refuse to see the wisdom of letting the wildlings in, they see them as their main if not only enemy. They still believe people built a 700 foot high magic wall to keep out other human beings.

The NW must stand against the others yet they have become their own worst enemy. We don't know if Jon truly has any intention of going himself after Ramsey. If I am even partly correct he probably will not, Tormund will. It may well be just what he needed to say to get them to make a move against him if they intended to.

All of Jon's orders were being carried out. Grunts grumble, the men in question did not have to agree with what Jon ordered they just had to carry it out and they were. With him breaking the oath by ridingof they had a duty to kill him. So I am not sure what try to fool anyone does for him.

Jon was thinking before all this went down, that he was glad he was the only one breaking his oath and none of his brothers would have too. How would that fit in with the glamoring and all that?

 

[Rufio]

Fungous, I’m glad you liked it!

Now the answers to your points as I see them.

Jon previously stated he brought those bodies back in order to get to know the enemy. How, besides warging them, is he to learn anything more than they already know?

Wights contain some form of life, they have to, dead things don’t usually walk, kill, or remember.

A wight is not a human being! The rules against humans do not apply.
Very cold things “smoke” too. Just open up your freezer for proof of this.

I'm sure he thinks at some point about his disappointment that the corpses haven't woken up. This would be better if I had the passages to hand but I'm sure it's established this is his purpose, to study them at first hand without them killing him.

That doesn't preclude him having another purpose in mind too, or coming up with a new one. But I think I've said before the reasons I don't believe the theory, though I like it. It relies on so much happening off the page, GRRM uses the POV structure and unreliable narrators to obscure things from us at times but I think the theory relies on it for too much. The planning of it, the skinchanging itself, Jon ever thinking about it, Mel ever thinking about it, a big jump in Jon's skinchanging skills which so far have only been unconcsious with Ghost.

 

[joepan29]

But how long was it after the "oath-breaking" speech that they killed him? As I recall, he finished his speech, ran into another hall where the tumult had already started before getting ambushed. And the fact that many of them simultaneously stabbed him (all using daggers) and said the same thing (For the Watch) makes me think this was more a planned assassination than simply a reaction to Jon’s breaking his oath by going south.

And regarding the smoking wound: “A promised prince, born in smoke and salt”

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Fungous, I’m glad you liked it!

Now the answers to your points as I see them.

Jon previously stated he brought those bodies back in order to get to know the enemy. How, besides warging them, is he to learn anything more than they already know?

Wights contain some form of life, they have to, dead things don’t usually walk, kill, or remember.

A wight is not a human being! The rules against humans do not apply.
Very cold things “smoke” too. Just open up your freezer for proof of this.

I always thought that, since they don't really know anything about them that they would be interested to know a little more. The only thing Jon is sure of regarding wights is that fire kills them. Maybe he wants to test Dragon glass or dragon steel on them, or just try crushing them.

 

[Fungous]

Fungous, I’m glad you liked it!

Now the answers to your points as I see them.

Jon previously stated he brought those bodies back in order to get to know the enemy. How, besides warging them, is he to learn anything more than they already know?

Wights contain some form of life, they have to, dead things don’t usually walk, kill, or remember.

A wight is not a human being! The rules against humans do not apply.
Very cold things “smoke” too. Just open up your freezer for proof of this.

I believe his intention was to bring them back in the hopes they reanimate. I'm not really aware of anything being learned while Warging other than just the shared experience. But you're right, they are "alive."

While you are correct that a Wight is not Human, the point I was making was that it will not be viewed kindly by anyone if Jon's ability to Warg multiplied exponentially and he took over a Wight or a human. I dare say that if anyone knew, it would be looked upon terribly, as if he suddenly has become "corrupted" by sacrilege or by the undead.

Reference the smoking issue, it's a temperature difference issue. The smoke is created by the warmth hitting the cold air.

 

[The Imp]

I believe his intention was to bring them back in the hopes they reanimate. I'm not really aware of anything being learned while Warging other than just the shared experience. But you're right, they are "alive."

While you are correct that a Wight is not Human, the point I was making was that it will not be viewed kindly by anyone if Jon's ability to Warg multiplied exponentially and he took over a Wight or a human. I dare say that if anyone knew, it would be looked upon terribly, as if he suddenly has become "corrupted" by sacrilege or by the undead.

Reference the smoking issue, it's a temperature difference issue. The smoke is created by the warmth hitting the cold air.

The word smoke was specifically used, not steam. GRRM is a very precise writer, and I think he knew which word he was using and what the ramifications were of using it. The question for me is, would a steel blade cause a raised corpse to smoke in the way that an obsidian one would, and is it possible that Marsh WAS using such a blade, and was part of the "conspiracy"?

 

[Needle]

If you are meaning valerian steel, then yes I think the corpse would smoke the same as if using obsidian.

This may or may not put him in the "conspiracy" Marsh was a noble of some sort wasn't he? His personal dagger could very well be valerian steel.

 

[Fungous]

If you are meaning valerian steel, then yes I think the corpse would smoke the same as if using obsidian.

This may or may not put him in the "conspiracy" Marsh was a noble of some sort wasn't he? His personal dagger could very well be valerian steel.

Totally hadn't thought of that however, I'm doing Arabic Homework ATM and can't really look it up but didn't the Wight shiver violently and kinda like disintegrate when stabbed with DragonGlass? We haven't had a description of a wight stabbed by Valerian steel but is it safe to assume the reaction would be the same?

Regardless, that is a really good point, and lends credence to the theory of Jon occupying a body. The only question would be, do Wights react differently than re-animated corpses when stabbed or "damaged" by either Dragon Steel or Valerian Steel?

 

[Rufio]

It is White Walkers aka the Others that respond that way when stabbed by obsidian and Valryian steel. As far as I know the Wights, which are the resurrected corpses have only been shown to be killed by fire - although I don't recall whether anyone has tried obsidian or Valyrian steel on them. But the White Walkers and the Wights are clearly two different (although confusingly named) beasts.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

If jon were to have warged into a corpse it would not necessarily be a wight. It would only be a wight if it reanimated before Jon warged into it, otherwise it would just be a walking corpse, and there is no precedent of a Warg reanimating a corpse, otherwise why didn't varamyr just go back from the wolf into his own dead body? The only walking, fully sentient corpse we know about is Coldhands, which we accept is probably Benjen, but Coldhands has all of the physical and "Magical" characteristics of a wight, like blue eyes and not being able to pass the wall.

I don't know, as much as I want to believe Needle's theory, i really just think Jon genuinely got stabbed.

 

[Reivax26]

Don't know if anyone noticed it or not but I remember reading something about Aerys Targaryen taking advantage of Tywin Lannisters wife. It was hinted at anyway which brings up the question of whether or not Jaime and Cersei are actually Lannisters at all. I may be remembering it wrong and if I am please correct me.

 

[The Imp]

Don't know if anyone noticed it or not but I remember reading something about Aerys Targaryen taking advantage of Tywin Lannisters wife. It was hinted at anyway which brings up the question of whether or not Jaime and Cersei are actually Lannisters at all. I may be remembering it wrong and if I am please correct me.

You're correct, but I think the question of lineage is in regard to Tyrion.

 

[Rufio]

Barristan recalls that Aerys 'took liberties' during Joanna's bedding. That is a public event though, if he had actually had sex with her then all of Westeros would know about it. So I don't think that happened, but it establishes that Aerys had an eye for her.

Tyrion seems more likely to be a child of Aerys than Jamie and Cersei do, but you can make some connections with them too. Cersei's paranoia seems pretty similar to Aerys, how much she enjoyed burning the Tower of the Hand, the incest. The idea that when a Targ is born it's a flip of a coin, they could be a hero or they could be mad, arguably you have both sides in Jaime and Cersei.

 

[Eversummer]

I'm with you Rufio. Well, I always think of Tyrion as the real Lannister among the siblings.

Well, Jon Snow could also be Aerys Targaryen's ******* son.
Lyanna posing as the miss-terious Knight of the Laughing Tree.
By MK Aerys' orders, she was caught, her disguise blown, deflowered by the MK.
Later, Rhaegar found her, she went with him running away from shame.
Rhaegar then helped her, hid her in the Tower of Joy.
Then, poof! He fell head over heels with her.
Then the murder of Lord Rickard and Brandon Stark...follows the rebellion.
Well, we didn't have any concrete information for Jon Snow yet...so that.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I know this thread has been dead a while, but I found THIS* theory while doing some soiaf bowsing and thought I would post it and some of my thoughts on it as well

* (Spoilers All)A theory on Melisandre : asoiaf


Basically, the theory is that Mel is undead, much like Berric Dondarion was and May not even know it. They don't mention this in that theory, but when Berric is resurrected, it is described as passing the flame of life, and that the fire fills him up and brings him back. Mel repeatedly refers to herself as being filled with fire.

The reason I am posting this here is the ramifications of Mel passing her flame of life to Jon and how that would affect him.

 

[will38mel]

I don't think he's dead, but I'm not buying the warged in ghost/melisandre resurrection thing - too easy.

Knowing the author's reputation, I think its something completely out of left field.

My guess would be that Jon's too smart not to heed Mel's warning after the weeper's present outside the wall. I think the "Jon" who was stabbed was a galmour of jon (maybe the Karstark prisoner) and Jon's either on the rescue mission to Hardhome or Winterfell (through the crypts). As a fan, I would love it to be Winterfell, but I don't think George would give us that satisfaction. He's apart of that rescue mission to Hardhome.