Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Needle]

i just had a thought, scary I know!

There has been debate over whether Jon "dying" releases him from his oath to the NW. Personally I don't think it does-but-if he remains "dead" long enough for a funeral or memorial to be held.... "and now his watch is ended."

 

[grip junky]

To me if Jon is dead five minutes or five years if he come back as Jon Snow the oath stands.

This is what I would like to see happen, I know that this is not what will happen. I would like to see the Others totally destroyed by the Nights Watch. Then all their oaths would be done. Most would have nothing out side of the watch and would take a new oath to Jon Stark. Their is still that letter out there penned from Robb that makes Jon a Stark and king of the north. That is what I would like to see happen, but it seems most think it is ok to go grey on the oath.

 

[The Imp]

To me if Jon is dead five minutes or five years if he come back as Jon Snow the oath stands.

This is what I would like to see happen, I know that this is not what will happen. I would like to see the Others totally destroyed by the Nights Watch. Then all their oaths would be done. Most would have nothing out side of the watch and would take a new oath to Jon Stark. Their is still that letter out there penned from Robb that makes Jon a Stark and king of the north. That is what I would like to see happen, but it seems most think it is ok to go grey on the oath.

Jon being willing to break his oath is problematic, but not unbelievable, given how close he came early on in the series to deserting. The letter you mention is something I've thought about before, and I suppose that he COULD pardon himself if he ever gained Winterfell and actually called himself The King in the North.

BTW, I'm not sure the Night's Watch oath ends when the Others are defeated, as they were defeated once before yet the Watch remains. I think the assumption is, and perhaps the reality is, that The others can never be completely eradicated.

 

[grip junky]

Jon being willing to break his oath is problematic, but not unbelievable, given how close he came early on in the series to deserting. The letter you mention is something I've thought about before, and I suppose that he COULD pardon himself if he ever gained Winterfell and actually called himself The King in the North.

BTW, I'm not sure the Night's Watch oath ends when the Others are defeated, as they were defeated once before yet the Watch remains. I think the assumption is, and perhaps the reality is, that The others can never be completely eradicated.

Not just defeated, destroyed. I think they can be eradicated at this time. If Jon breaks his oath now who would trust his oath in the future? That world is all about hand shakes. The oath is a big deal.

I was trying to think of all the people with in the story that have broken an oath, most seem to die.

 

[Needle]

Not just defeated, destroyed. I think they can be eradicated at this time. If Jon breaks his oath now who would trust his oath in the future? That world is all about hand shakes. The oath is a big deal.

I was trying to think of all the people with in the story that have broken an oath, most seem to die.

While what you say is true, many have taken conflicting oaths. The best example is Jaime: He swore an oath upon receiving knighthood to protect the innocent and so forth, then swore an oath to protect his King. By breaking one he upheld the others. There is also at one point a rememberance of a conversation which took place while Aerys was raping and abusing his wife that the Kingsgaurd had taken an oath to protect her too- the reply was "Not from him." So while I agree, it brings up further questions.

 

[The Imp]

While what you say is true, many have taken conflicting oaths. The best example is Jaime: He swore an oath upon receiving knighthood to protect the innocent and so forth, then swore an oath to protect his King. By breaking one he upheld the others. There is also at one point a rememberance of a conversation which took place while Aerys was raping and abusing his wife that the Kingsgaurd had taken an oath to protect her too- the reply was "Not from him." So while I agree, it brings up further questions.

Interesting point that Jaime was in conflict between his oath as a knight and his oath as a Kingsguard. Personally i think the Kingsguard oath supercedes the knight's oath, but I'm not the one in Jaime's dilemna

 

[grip junky]

From what I can tell outside of his family no one trust Jaime.

Some oaths are greater than others. Some are personal, a knights oath means what they mean to the one that swears it. When A knight goes to war or sacks a city or town, his oath is his and what it means to him. A oath to the BW, king, war lord are something more. I just think back to the start of the first book.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I am with Grip in that I really don't want to see Jon break his Oath, no matter how long he stays dead. The only way Jon is going to get out of his oath is if he wakes up/recovers or whatever theory is popular right now, and the rest of the watch is dead or has deserted.

 

[Rufio]

I am with Grip in that I really don't want to see Jon break his Oath, no matter how long he stays dead. The only way Jon is going to get out of his oath is if he wakes up/recovers or whatever theory is popular right now, and the rest of the watch is dead or has deserted.

Given the current situation of The Wall, that is a very real possibility. Castle Black is going to be chaos in the wake of the events at the end of ADWD, Eastwatch could possibly come under attack from Others, and the Shadow Tower is seemingly going to be attacked by the Weeper at some point. As I recall there's not much Watch outside of those three garrisons.

Or a less drastic scenario they get a new leader and it's not safe or productive for Jon to be there any more.

Anyway, Needle has pointed out that oaths can be contradictory. Jon has had to play the oathbreaker (and probably break parts of his oath) in order to help the Watch. His current predicament can be blamed largely on him going against the contemporary understanding of the oath, mainly by bringing the wildlings through The Wall, also working with Stannis though that's not quite so controversial with his brothers. But I think we have to assume that the true meaning of the oath, the very reason for its existence is to fight the Others. That has been Jon's purpose arguably all the way back to A Game Of Thrones, and I don't think it's one he's going to give up on. If breaking other parts of his oath allows him to do that more effectively I think it's what he will do.

I agree with grip junky in some respects, in that an oath breaker isn't a good thing to be seen as in Westeros and even if he's dead for a while and has the funeral rite technically releasing him from his oath (or not) that isn't going to play well, "I'm dead but I got better, join my army to fight zombies (but not me) pls". He needs a political reason, he probably has wildling support whatever he does but if he's seen as an oathbreaker and starts leading an army of wildlings too no one else will support him. Plus I don't see Jon just walking out because he can, there would need to be a good reason in his own mind. Maybe it'll be one of the things above, if the Night's Watch no longer exists in current form that may allow Jon to assert himself a lot more politically than if he's just an outcast. The big one is Robb's will which is still out there somewhere. If that comes along and names Jonas Robb's heir and King In The North he has to take it.

One last thought, The Imp noted that Jon tried to desert early in the series. He did that for a (relatively) selfish reason, to go to war along with Robb. That time his brothers stopped him and brought him back. At the end of Dance he is possibly deserting* for a (relatively) selfish reason**, to get 'Arya' safe from Ramsay, and again his brothers stop him albeit in a different way! So on a meta level we can maybe say that's not a good thing for Jon to do, that's not where he's going.

*It's debatable and IIRC even he doesn't really know himself whether he's oathbreaking.
**I think it can be justified in the sense that Ramsay is making threats against the Watch and they couldn't defend Castle Black against him, so their only form of defence was to attack, but Jon doesn't justify it this way.

That ended up being kinda long

 

[Fungous]

So I should be long asleep but I can't get this thought stream out my head. I have no idea whether this thought stream has come up anywhere but have we taken the direwolves into account? Let me re-introduce you to Jon's Direwolf:

"He must have crawled away from the others," Jon said.
"Or been driven away," their father said, looking at the sixth pup. His fur was white, where the rest of the litter was grey. His eyes were as red as the blood of the ragged man who had died that morning. Bran thought it curious that this pup alone would have opened his eyes while the others were still blind." -C1,GoT

This can't be coincidence. Even the words match up with Jon's future, while not chased away completely, Jon crawled to the wall knowing he was no longer welcome at Winterfell with Cat, and he couldn't go to King's Landing either. White fur, as white as the Stark Banner and as the Snow and Ice which would become his new home. I really find it interesting about his red eyes... and the fact that ONLY Jon's wolf had his eyes open when recovered. I would argue that the Red eyes are a clear indicator of Azhor Azhai. You could ask why is it that he didn't figure this out before the NW turned on him? Just because his Wolf's eyes are open, doesn't mean that his are, and it has been a theme for some time that Jon has needed to change his view from that of a boy, and this is his chance, to open his eyes and come back Azhor Azhai. Surely Melisandre will help, as Ghost took to her immediately, the question is how.

Honestly, I think that even though he blacked out, the attack just won't succeed in killing him. I mean, Wun Wun was right there as were Wildlings who love Jon and Melisandre was nearby. It would take simply a word from her to protect Jon from the queen's men. If he dies even for a little bit and then tries to lead the living against an Army of Undead... He's gonna have a bad time... I mean they can't even handle his being cool to Wildlings. I see him surviving barely and getting the Victarion treatment from Mel. This should be enough to awaken AAR and the recovery dreams are a great chance for him to fully bond with Ghost or to somehow talk to Bran. All this from the uniqueness of Ghost and some believed fore-shadowing.

Something else to think about, all the Stark wolves were Grey with Yellow eyes, except obviously Ghost... and Shaggydog, who is black with Green eyes. If that doesn't say something about their owners being unique then...

Thoughts?

 

[Needle]

Fungous, I agree with many of your points. Ghost is more than a wolf I’m sure, how much more, not so sure. I am also pretty convinced that Jon is AA reborn, and probably TPTWP as well.

I don’t feel Jon can die at this point. Yes GRRM is capable of killing off anyone but too much would be lost if Jon where to die now, like that, for no gain.

So our options as I see them are:
1. Jon is not seriously hurt, much less dead.
I doubt this is the case, despite layers of clothing, his wounds are most likely serious if not fatal.
2. Jon will recover on his own, the old fashioned way.
Time becomes an issue here. The NW is falling apart, the Others are coming. If he is incapacitated for long, he is dead anyway.
3. Jon is brought back by Mel. He may flee into Ghost while his body is dying, then back once brought back.
This is certainly possible, yet there are problems with it. Mainly the North, especially the Wildlings will no longer accept him. He is one of the un-dead, brought back using the power of a God they hate and fear. They would never trust him again.

I don’t know if you have had the pleasure of reading this theory before, but here it is again. I still feel that it is fundamentally correct.

4. Option 4 found here- http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/1528838-post223.html

Let me know what you think.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I Think, as Funguos has stated, that the option between 2 and 3 is most likely. That Jon doesn't actually Die, but is nevertheless healed by Mel. This would speed up the time issue of his healing on his own. I also think it is a possibility that Mance's wife (can't recall her name now) may be able to help with the healing process, but there is really no evidence of this being the case, ie. no precedent where wildlings heal people quickly. (though Mance himself was helped through a difficult time and "healed" by a wildling woman, but I think that took a long time)

On the other hand, If jon DOES actually die and needs to be brought back by Mel, as long as she is the only one who sees it happen, they could just say that he didn't completely die. that is shaky ground though i know, and I would be worried that we would lose Jon as a POV if this were the case.

I deffinately like Needles theory as it bypasses all of the problems with the diferent options above. No healing time, no resurrection, etc. The only issue I have with it is that it would require a retroactive explanation of things that already happened. GRRM usually only does this when we hear about something happening far away, then find out afterward that it didn't actually happen from people who were actually there (ie. Davos' "execution"). i'm not saying it's not a possibility, but i think it is unlikely.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

So far, the best theory that I've heard is Needle's option 4. I like it. Enough magic, but not too much. It is possible, improbable, but possible. Also, option 2 but with a bit of Mel's help.

 

[The Imp]

I Think, as Funguos has stated, that the option between 2 and 3 is most likely. That Jon doesn't actually Die, but is nevertheless healed by Mel. This would speed up the time issue of his healing on his own. I also think it is a possibility that Mance's wife (can't recall her name now) may be able to help with the healing process, but there is really no evidence of this being the case, ie. no precedent where wildlings heal people quickly. (though Mance himself was helped through a difficult time and "healed" by a wildling woman, but I think that took a long time)

On the other hand, If jon DOES actually die and needs to be brought back by Mel, as long as she is the only one who sees it happen, they could just say that he didn't completely die. that is shaky ground though i know, and I would be worried that we would lose Jon as a POV if this were the case.

I deffinately like Needles theory as it bypasses all of the problems with the diferent options above. No healing time, no resurrection, etc. The only issue I have with it is that it would require a retroactive explanation of things that already happened. GRRM usually only does this when we hear about something happening far away, then find out afterward that it didn't actually happen from people who were actually there (ie. Davos' "execution"). i'm not saying it's not a possibility, but i think it is unlikely.

GRRM spent a LOT of time laying the groundwork for a scenario which involves glamouring.

The entire prolgoue explains parameters/rules of warging, and explains what happens if the wargs body dies.

We are twice shown that EVERYONE, including us, can be fooled by the power of Mel's glamouring.

As for the corpses in the ice cells, this paragraph is fascinating.

Might I ask about these corpses in the ice cells? They make the men uneasy. And to keep them under guard? Surely that is a waste of two good men, unless you fear that they …"
"… will rise? I pray they do."
Septon Cellador paled. "Seven save us." Wine dribbled down his chin in a red line. "Lord Commander, wights are monstrous, unnatural creatures. Abominations before the eyes of the gods. You … you cannot mean to try to talk with them?"
"Can they talk?" asked Jon Snow. "I think not, but I cannot claim to know. Monsters they may be, but they were men before they died. How much remains? The one I slew was intent on killing Lord Commander Mormont. Plainly it remembered who he was and where to find him." Maester Aemon would have grasped his purpose, Jon did not doubt; Sam Tarly would have been terrified, but he would have understood as well. "My lord father used to tell me that a man must know his enemies. We understand little of the wights and less about the Others. We need to learn."

I think that Jon's "purpose" is crystal clear in light of future events. No offense to anyone who suggested that Jon may just naturally recover, or "simply" be resurrected by Mel, that would just not be clever or inspired writing, and again, would have wasted a lot of good forshadowing for a rather banal outcome.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I still feel as though he only wanted to learn about the wights, not use their corpses for his own means.

Like I said though, I really like Needles theory and I really hope that it is right. As I said, I don't wan't Jon to be resurrected and I agree that simply living through the attack would be too anti-climactic.

I guess Needles theory could work if we opened on the wall with a Mel chapter that coincided with Jon's last chapter, which isn't unprecedented. I also think that, for needles theory to work, Even Jon would have to be unaware of what Mel was really doing, otherwise why would he have hidden his thoughts from the reader, unlless he was ignorent of much of Mel's plan to keep him alive...

 

[grip junky]

Fungous, I agree with many of your points. Ghost is more than a wolf I’m sure, how much more, not so sure. I am also pretty convinced that Jon is AA reborn, and probably TPTWP as well.

I don’t feel Jon can die at this point. Yes GRRM is capable of killing off anyone but too much would be lost if Jon where to die now, like that, for no gain.

So our options as I see them are:
1. Jon is not seriously hurt, much less dead.
I doubt this is the case, despite layers of clothing, his wounds are most likely serious if not fatal.
2. Jon will recover on his own, the old fashioned way.
Time becomes an issue here. The NW is falling apart, the Others are coming. If he is incapacitated for long, he is dead anyway.
3. Jon is brought back by Mel. He may flee into Ghost while his body is dying, then back once brought back.
This is certainly possible, yet there are problems with it. Mainly the North, especially the Wildlings will no longer accept him. He is one of the un-dead, brought back using the power of a God they hate and fear. They would never trust him again.

I don’t know if you have had the pleasure of reading this theory before, but here it is again. I still feel that it is fundamentally correct.

4. Option 4 found here- http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/1528838-post223.html

Let me know what you think.

I saw your link before. Why go through all that? How does it get him to where he wants to be. Glamouring or not, when he is unglamoured he is still Jon Snow and has the oath. When you say "rid himself of those standing in the way" do you mean the men more loyal to the watch and the old ways than to him. Why not just take the deal Stannis Baratheon gave him, from the get go?

 

[Needle]

By those standing in the way I mean those who refuse to believe the real enemy is on the way.

We know the Others are coming. They are also picking off the wildlings as they go. Anyone killed by a wright seems to become one. Dead wildings to add to their army.

Those "standing in the way" are so, to use a phrase of Anne McCaffery, hide bound that they refuse to see the wisdom of letting the wildlings in, they see them as their main if not only enemy. They still believe people built a 700 foot high magic wall to keep out other human beings.

The NW must stand against the others yet they have become their own worst enemy. We don't know if Jon truly has any intention of going himself after Ramsey. If I am even partly correct he probably will not, Tormund will. It may well be just what he needed to say to get them to make a move against him if they intended to.

 

[Fungous]

Needle, your theory is sublime. That being said, I'm sticking to my guns because I thoroughly believe that Jon would never go through with such a plan willingly, much like what Arsten said. Also, the wounds of a dead man, who had been stored in an ice cell would not have a wound that smoked in the cold, like Jon did. A dead body would not have the warmth to give of said smoke and the cold of the body wouldn't emit smoke either, concealed and frozen blood and all.

I will concede though that it is a very good possibility that Jon Warg'd or was forced to Warg unknowingly. Jon is too honorable to sacrifice someone for how own Honor, that's why he's always thinking to himself that at least he didn't force any of his brother's to break their oaths. So the way I see it, Jon would have never Warg'd willingly, it would be dishonorable. Not only that but even to Wildlings, warging into a Human is not only dishonorable but nearly sacrilege. He's basically lost the support of the NW, he can't lose the Wildlings as well.

This leaves two options along this path. 1) Melisandre tricked him unknowingly into Warging into a human and when he returns they have to concoct a story as to how he survived or else lose everyone around him. Or 2) My theory about Melisandre 'Saving' him a la Victarion comes to pass, with him now honoring both the Old Gods and R'Hllor (and hopefully a blazing ******* Sword soon thereafter ). With case 2, I believe he can bring both the Wildlings and the Queen's Men together. With that power he can purge the dumbasses in the NW who somehow don't understand that the real battle is with the Wights and fully take control of the Wall and defend the realm.

There is a time component in this though because he can't complete all this before "Arya" gets to the wall. If he thinks his sister is still there then he will still want to march on Winterfell and take his eye off the defense of the Wall.

If there are holes in this, please let me know!

 

[The Imp]

I still feel as though he only wanted to learn about the wights, not use their corpses for his own means.

Like I said though, I really like Needles theory and I really hope that it is right. As I said, I don't wan't Jon to be resurrected and I agree that simply living through the attack would be too anti-climactic.

I guess Needles theory could work if we opened on the wall with a Mel chapter that coincided with Jon's last chapter, which isn't unprecedented. I also think that, for needles theory to work, Even Jon would have to be unaware of what Mel was really doing, otherwise why would he have hidden his thoughts from the reader, unlless he was ignorent of much of Mel's plan to keep him alive...

With all due respect, you may not be grasping all of the fine points of the theory. jon's thoughts are 100% accurate and true because Jon has warged into the glamoured corpse, or perhaps the corpse was glamoured after jon warged into it. In any case, Jon is residing in the body that has been glamoured to look like him. We have his thoughts as the stabbing occurs becuase jon is being stabbed, although it's not his actual body. Jon returns to his own body at the end of the chapter, hence

He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

 

[Fungous]

With all due respect, you may not be grasping all of the fine points of the theory. jon's thoughts are 100% accurate and true because Jon has warged into the glamoured corpse, or perhaps the corpse was glamoured after jon warged into it. In any case, Jon is residing in the body that has been glamoured to look like him. We have his thoughts as the stabbing occurs becuase jon is being stabbed, although it's not his actual body. Jon returns to his own body at the end of the chapter, hence

However, this does not explain the fact that Warging has always been into living creatures, never a re-animated corpse, nor does it explain the steaming of the wound as I mentioned before. It is for these two reasons that I believe the theory of his Warging into a dead body is not what happened, as stated in my post above.