The Valonqar

Jon a Lannister? Never! Sacrilige.
And the valonqar is so Jaime, with a new hand of course. Or possibly the gold one, but working, like Eril's stone one in the Banned and the Banished. If they can bring someone back to life, they can sort Jaime a hand. The loss has served its purpose.
 
Sorry Red Temple. So much for my theory being original... but you are so right, although Jaime doesn't have magic and would have to find a maegi... maybe Wotsit, Mad Maggie or whatever. She could give him his hand on the condition that he throttles Cersei with it. Some poetic justice and just a dash of self-fulfilling prophecy, I love it. Thoughts? Ideas?
 
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"brother" doesn't necessarilly have to stand for somebody's sibling. knights of the kingsguard are sworn brothers, members of the night's watch as well, and, if i remeber correctly, there are also "brothers without banners". so the valonqar actually might be jon, or even loras tyrell if he's alive, or gendry...
 
Hagar, welcome!

By that logic any male who has a sibling or who is in an organization that uses the term "brother" qualifies. The brother relationship needs to be with Cersei herself. The Nights' Watch consider themselves brothers, but not Cersei's brothers... Jon was forced to admit that he was no longer Robb's brother so I don't see how he could be Cersei's.

Outside of Tyrion and Jaime mayhaps we could look at any man in a brotherly relationship to Cersei.

The sworn brothers of the Kingsguard are a possibility given that they are sworn to guard the king. One of the members of the Small Council, mayhaps?... though I confess I don't see Cersei as viewing herself a sister to any councillor.

Hagar, I don't mean to shut you down... Keep working this if you feel strongly about it. GRRM's use of Maggy's valonqar prophecy is curious because it seems so precise... only Jaime or Tyrion. Cersei is so certain it's Tyrion while we know that Jaime has turned his back on his romantic relationship with Cersei... Martin could be faking us out again. Mayhaps it will be one of the Kingsguard, though I think it's a bit of a stretch to say the least.
 
Aemon changed his view on TPTWP from Prince to Princess. Could valonqar be wrong also? What if it was not little brother, but little sister instead? I don't have ideas on this... just asking a question.

Cersei got her prophecies from Maggy. The three prophecies were to be a queen, to be undone by the valonqar, and to be replaced by a younger queen... right? Could the valonqar and the replacement queen go together? i.e. Tyrion replaces Cersei with Dany or Jaime replaces Cersei with Myrcella. Or mayhaps Cersei has already been replaced with Margaery and were just waiting for the revelation of the valonqar.
 
Maybe we are searching in the wrong direction. What we know is: she is going to be killed. So who could kill her and how? Afterwards we sort out whether it more or less fits the prophecy.

Some believe she's pregnant, how about her dying in childbirth?

Just to stir up things even further: how can we know Cersei is not a ******* child herself;)
 
Hey All-

I'm just re-readig AFFC now. Maggy prophecies that Cersei will be killed by the valonqar's pale hands wrapping around her throat. Now, since we're really here to nit-pick: Jaime could certainly use the golden hand to crush Cersei's throat, but can gold be considered pale?

I almost hope that it's Tyrion. He's got the least to lose and more reasons to hate her than anyone else.
 
AU comes out of nowhere to set us boys straight.

Pale hands...what if it is Jaime and usually one would associate pale hands with death. What if Jaime becomes un-Jaime like un-Cat?
 
Niolani said:
Could be either or neither. The valonquar means liitle brother doesn't it? It doesn't necessarily mean Cersei's brother, it could mean anyone's, there's a few to choose from, Jon, Bran, Stannis, Gendry or Edric Storm and others...
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I agree. I've learned to expect the un-expected from GRRM. It's rare that I am able to anticipate what happens next, so it could be one of those mentioned above, or someone we haven't even considered.
 
AryaUnderfoot said:
Hey All-

I'm just re-readig AFFC now. Maggy prophecies that Cersei will be killed by the valonqar's pale hands wrapping around her throat. Now, since we're really here to nit-pick: Jaime could certainly use the golden hand to crush Cersei's throat, but can gold be considered pale?
Click to expand...

I've always put my money on the Valonqar being either Tommen or Dany.

Tommen because Martin has a perverse way of making 90% of all cause and effect on Lannisters stay within the Lannister clan. Cercei and Jaime's incest, Lancel and Cercei, Tyrion killing his father-- if Cercei dies it could very well happen at the hands of a Lannister. Remember that Cercei has thoroughly shamed and tried to kill Tommen's wife, Margaery, whom he adores. And Tommen doesn't get out much if I recall, so he is probably pretty pastey.

Dany because "Valonqar" is probably one of those neuter nouns that could mean younger *sibling* -- not truly boy or girl, in which case Dany qualifies. Her motives would be obvious, and in describing the Targarians, if I recall, Martin says they are pale with silver blond hair...
 
No no, no no and no. At least, it's very unlikely that Tommen is the valonqar to which Maggy refers. Cersei is told she'll see multiple kids receive crowns AND shrouds of gold. I do not have AFFC with me, but it's pretty clear that at least 2 of her children will die before the valonqar comes for her. Though the wording is peculiar, it leaves us with little reason to suspect that Tommen will outlast Cersei.

In my opinion, Cersei incorrectly suspects Tyrion. I, for one, don't think Tyrion has or ever had the rage/hate/passion in him required to strangle her. Do her in with a knife or crossbow or royal decree, perhaps, but throttling is so much more personal. Tyrion might throttle Shae, but I can't imagine Cersei will even have the power to enrage him to that degree when they next meet.

I think the valonqar is Jaime. Despite repeated abuses, he clearly still cares for her. The fact that he has observed that his golden hand would not be good for strangling someone would only add to the irony.
 
I wonder if Jaime holding onto Cersei's foot indicates anything about him being the Valonqar. it would be sort of a Biblical allusion.

Now, Boaz has speculated twice if GRRM has used an biblical allusins, and twice, he was dissed for his speculations. It really is not that outlandish the think GRRM may do that. After all, anybody who has read much of Western literature knows there are TONS of Biblical allusions, regardless of the author or reader's own personal beliefs. So, whatever you think about the Bible, do be informed that wetern literature has a rich history of drawing comparisons with Bible characters.

Now, I think Jaime may be like Jacob, who was born holding his brother Esau by the heel. IN FACT, the name Jaime is desended from the name Jacob. Jaime is a variant of James. Jacob was named Jacob meaning "he who supplants." Jacob was very conniving and eventually stole his brother's birthright.
 
Allusion, reference, or inspiration I think you've stumbled upon a real similarity here. Esau was born before Jacob, but they were twins. Esau sold his birthright to Jacob and then Jacob stole Esau's blessing.

Mayhaps I've borrowed from the Bible in my guess that Aerys raped Joanna and got her pregnant. It sounds somewhat like David and Bathsheba.

You could say the Red Viper vs The Mountain sounds like David and Goliath.

Aegon's conquest of Westeros could be compared to Joshua's conquest of Canaan. Both arrived at a definitive point. Both ate up the petty kings piecemeal. Neither was able to subdue all of the land.. it was left to another.

I'm not saying GRRM is advocating Judaism, far from it. But he's writing a huge story, so he takes inspiration from many sources.
 
Well, Tyrion is going to be with Dany soon at Slavers Bay so he still might be the one to kill. The Maegi told Cersei that she will be queen until someone younger and more beautiful comes to cast her down. Obviously that is Dany when she comes back to Westeros. Tyrion will be in tail so perhaps at the end something happens between Cersei and Dany? and Tyrion is forced to kill Cersei.

Or .... It's Jaime. They keep mentioning how they came into the world together and that they will leave it together. Lately, Jaimie's feelings have changed and he is seeing her for how she really is. I could see him killing her, but not out of spite, but more like a rash action or perhaps to stop her from doing something horrific.
 
I like Boaz's idea. 'Valonqar' is in High Valyrian, which has no gendered nouns. 'Prince that was Promised' just as easily means 'Princess that was Promised.' So valonqar could just as easily mean little sister. Cersei assumes it's little brother because she only has brothers. But then Cersei also assumed that the younger queen was Margaery, and that's obviously wrong.

So following that logic, the valonqar could be almost anyone.

I find it interesting that the majority of the prophesy is in the common tongue (I think?), but 'valonqar' is High Valyrian. This suggests to me that rather than it being a literal little brother or sister, Valonqar is a title. Just like Dany is called 'mother,' someone will get the title of 'little brother/sister,' perhaps by association with Dany. But again, it could be almost anyone.
 
Suicide? Could she be considered her own sibling? The longer the time, the bolder the theories.:D

We can all agree that Jaime and Tyrion both fit the description, so that's the most likely.

It's most likely either one of those or the only obvious stated "little sister": Arya.
(Jon always called her little sister)
 
scalem X said:
It's most likely either one of those or the only obvious stated "little sister": Arya.
(Jon always called her little sister)
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Well, Cersei is on Arya's list and, oddly enough, everyone on Arya's list has been dying...
 
Sorry... uh, major brain lapse. Could a mod please delete this post.
 
Pale hands...what if it is Jaime and usually one would associate pale hands with death. What if Jaime becomes un-Jaime like un-Cat?
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It does seem to be an explanation. The pale hands...
Maybe it's just Cat. After all, she had an older sister too.

For all that it's worth, Martin may decide to skip on the prophecy and have her suicide herself.:rolleyes:

My vote still goes to Arya though.

Maybe we should have a poll.:)
 
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