The Valonqar

My money is on the wild young Stark, Rikkon as the volanqar! Rikkon is a volanqar, a younger brother. Nowhere does the prophecy say it will be Cersei's younger brother. Rikkon is furious about everything that was brought on by the Lannisters visiting his home and stealing away fhis family. He and his direwolf Shaggydog are both out of control, and have disappeared from our radar, in the care of the wildling, Osha. He is clearly a warg, and also dreams most vividly of events occurring great distances away. He is in this story for a reason, and it is fitting that his reappearance will bring violence and retribution.
 
Hi Rikkon - I'm not sure that your namesake can even really grasp all that's happened at Winterfell and to his family (and who knows what Osha is telling him). Either way, it seems a huge stretch to me to think that enough time could pass for little Rickon to play a major role in events, let alone end up throttling Cersei, assuming that's how the phrophecy is meant to be interpreted.

I scattered my thoughts on this elsewhere so I'll just reiterate that for me it has to be Jaime, a) because he is Cersei's younger brother by a matter of moments and b) just because the idea of using his golden hand to assist in throttling her has a certain something about it. It'd also bear a poetic resemblance to Tyrion's throttling of Shae, with the help of the golden chain of the Hand.
 
I agree with you No One. My money's been on Jaime as the Valonqar from the start. It's generally believed that Tyrion will end up as one of Dany's aides or advisers and I can see him persuading Jaime over to their side, as Jaime becomes more and more sickened by events in Westeros. This would put him directly against Cersei. (This is somewhat where my batshit theory about Dany and Jaime getting together comes from). I can imagine a final showdown between Jaime and Cersei, where she perhaps tries to have Dany killed and Jaime kills her to protect Dany - thus the younger, prettier queen has taken everything Cersei had. It all makes perfect sense in my head! :D
 
Mesanna said:
I agree with you No One. My money's been on Jaime as the Valonqar from the start. It's generally believed that Tyrion will end up as one of Dany's aides or advisers and I can see him persuading Jaime over to their side, as Jaime becomes more and more sickened by events in Westeros. This would put him directly against Cersei. (This is somewhat where my batshit theory about Dany and Jaime getting together comes from). I can imagine a final showdown between Jaime and Cersei, where she perhaps tries to have Dany killed and Jaime kills her to protect Dany - thus the younger, prettier queen has taken everything Cersei had. It all makes perfect sense in my head! :D
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Hmm, when you put it like that, it almost sounds plausible.

Almost. :D
 
As someone else mentioned, it strikes me as significant that the rest of the prophecy is in the common tongue whereas valonqar is in Valyrian. If GRRM is going to tell us that it means "little brother", why not just say "little brother" to begin with? I think there is something to those hypotheses that the word has been misinterpreted or is intentionally misleading.
 
I have a problem with Tyrion joining Dany. Yes, Tyrion loves dragons. Yes, Tyrion is fascinated with fire. Yes, Tyrion wants vengeance upon all of Westeros... and Dany is brining the pain. Yes, Tyrion has experience in many facets of the governance of Westeros. BUT, Dany will most likely kill any and all Lannisters, Starks, Baratheons, Arryns, and Tullys that she meets. Tyrion's mouth damn well got him into this mess so it damn well better get him out, to paraphrase the Imp himself.

Dany is running a foster home for ex-slaves, but I don't think Tyrion will be able to pass as a slave. He needs to bring something to the table for Dany. Tyrion's ace in the hole, will be Illyrio and Varys. They will tell Dany that Tyrion is actually her half brother. A second head to the dragon will please Dany greatly.

So if Tyrion has this to offer Dany, why would she (of all people) ever make peace with the Kingslayer? Of all people in the world, Jaime is number one on Dany's list. There can be no reconciliation of Daenerys Stormborn Targaryen and the Kingslayer.

Some of you might remember me trying to come up with a grand unified theory of everything over the summer. Well, I failed. But the heart of it would have been that the mad king Aerys II fathered more than just Rhaegar, Viserys, and Daenerys. According to that theory, Aerys also fathered all three of Tywin Lannister's children upon Joanna... Cersei, Jaime, and Tyrion. And last but not least, Aerys raped Lyanna, Rhaegar abducted Lyanna to keep her from being killed by Aerys, and Lyanna gave birth to Jon.

So actually, if Jaime was Dany's older brother, would that reconcile them? Most likely no, but reconciliation is now within the realm of possibility.

But here is what I really want to get to... If Aerys fathered all of Joanna's children then Cersei and Dany are sisters. Cersei is worried about the Valonqar and the younger and prettier Queen. What if Dany were both? Yes, Dany is younger and prettier, but she's Cersei's younger sister not younger brother. Okay, but remember that Aemon and Rhaegar had intrepreted the Targaryen prophecy as The PRINCE that was promised and not as The PRINCESS that was promised... i.e. the Valyrian word was misinterpreted into the Common Tongue. What if valonqar does not mean younger brother, what if valonqar means younger sibling?

Remember when Catelyn tried to talk the northern lords into peace after Eddard was killed? The men told her that was was not for women, to which Catelyn replied that she'd strangle Cersei in a heartbeat given half a chance. Could be foreshadowing of a woman choking the life out of Cersei.

The problem with the grand unified theory is... well, there are lots of problems, but one of them is Baby Aegon... I cannot fit him into it.

And at the end of the day, it will be much sweeter if one of her own sweet brothers chokes Cersei.
 
Not sure if there has already been a spoiler warning yet in this thread, but... <SPOILER! below>


In regard to the Jaime = Valonqar theory, the text quoted above (which I guess must be word perfect) states that the valonqar would 'wrap his hands' about Cersei's neck. Jaime doesn't have hands, only a hand. Doubt his gold one could feasibly be 'wrapped' about someone's neck.
 
Boaz, you overstretched again.

Had you stopped at Tyrion is a half Targ and still a Valoquar because he is Cersei's younger half brother but we misinterpreted who the Valoquar is to kill, that being Dany, then you could of had those who support this crazy theory that he is a half Targ to begin with.

Tyrion is a Lannister.
 
@Boaz I don't think that Dany will kill all Lannisters, Starks, Baratheons, Arryns, and Tullys! Dany wants her throne back, yes, and is willing to go to great lengths to get it, but she doesn't strike me as utterly barbaric and without feeling. She must realise that taking the throne and keeping it are two different things, and that she must make allies, or war will continue unabated in Westeros. If the great houses are willing to swear allegiance to her, surely she must accept this or she risks her enemies forming new alliances with each other against her.

The reason I believe that Dany may find it in herself to forgive Jaime is when she finds out just how crazy and dangerous Aerys actually was. I can see this being something of a life-changing moment for her. She may find out about Aerys from Barristan Selmy, or possibly Tyrion, if Jaime ever confided the story to him.

I have to say that personally I don't buy the Tyrion is a Targ theory, nor the other Lannister kids. I have no proof for this, it's just my gut feeling :)
 
Well, regarding Boaz' post, I may be willing to accept Tyrion as a Targaryen, but not Jaime or Cersei (surely Tywin's pride in Jaime is a strong indicator). There must be a few things in these books that are just what they appear to be.

Also, Jon being the child of R+L just works too well for me in context of what we know of Rhaegar and the fact that Ned had sided with Robert. To say he was sired by Aerys would be to undermine the subtle network of clues that point to Rhaegar. That's not to say any of that isn't feasible and that I'm not completely speculating...

I wonder though if we might see the Lannister children (counting Tyrion) all turning on each other? I don't think anyone here would say that Jaime wouldn't be willing, if pushed hard enough, to kill Cersei, but I wonder if Tyrion could be pushed, by Dany, to kill Jaime?
 
Oooo, that's an interesting idea No One!

I can see both Tyrion and Jaime being willing to kill Cersei, if the circumstances were right, but it's hard to imagine them turning against each other to the point of killing. It would be quite tragic if they did. I can't quite recall from AFfC, but do we get much insight into Jaime's thoughts on how he feels about Tyrion killing their father? I can't recall him having murderous thoughts toward Tyrion, but maybe I'm not remembering too well.

It's hard to predict how Tyrion will go in the next couple of books (I haven't read the DwD preview chapter). He's not in a good place right now, and probably feels only anger toward his family and Jaime will be included in that, since his revelation set Tyrion on the path to kinslaying. I would say, of the two, Tyrion would be more likely to kill Jaime than the other way around, but I really, really, really hope that doesn't happen. It's a horrible thought! Jaime and Tyrion have always looked out for each other and have a strong brotherly bonding, which I admired (especially in Jaime, given the way Cersei feels towards Tyrion). It's one thing to be on opposite sides, but to personally sanction the death of your brother would be quite horrific (and therefore just the kind of thing that GRRM would do!)

PS if we accept R+L=J as fact (and I know not everyone does), then I agree that this must shoot down the Tyrion is a Targ theory. To suddenly have lost Targs popping up all over the place would be a cheap plot device and GRRM is too good a writer for that. You're right when you say the Rhaegar story has slowly and subtly been built up, and it would make a mockery of that to have Tyrion as a Targ too. Nah, Tyrion was put on this earth to make Tywin Lannister humble. And guess what, it didn't work!
 
Spoilers below...


In terms of dramatic effect, IMO it is more likely that Jaime will kill Tyrion than vice versa.

Tyrion killing Jaime would be tragic, but in some ways justified based on Jaime's part in the Tysha incident (which negatively influenced Tyrion's entire life). However, Jaime killing Tyrion based on the premise that Tyrion killed Joffrey would be far more tragic as it is based on a lie that Tyrion told in anger. Jaime could find this out after the fact for a full-on tragedyfest.
 
To be honest, I can't see Jaime killing Tyrion over Joffrey. He had his chance when he released him from the dungeon, but let Tyrion go. But maybe the combination of Tywin AND Joffrey? It's possible but personally I don't see it.

I find myself recalling Cersei's prophecy here, that her children will all die before her. Maybe Dany will invade Westeros, with Tyrion in tow, and Tommen will be killed in the resulting fallout (though perhaps unintentionally). I could see that possibly sending Jaime over the edge and he might blame Tyrion for his part in the event.

Does anyone have any theories or speculations on how Tommen and Myrcella will die?
 
You are all forgetting that Tyrion married Sansa Stark, therefore making all the Stark kids brother/sister in law to Cersei. With that in mind if you go the genderless route Arya Stark is a prime candidate since Cersei is on her list and she is training to kill, not to mention she is mistaken for a boy a lot. If it has to be strictly male well I doubt Rickon since i can't see him being able to. So that leaves Bran through the use of his powers, his motive would most likely be for the getting thrown off the roof making him a crippled. Or the least likely Jon. I say least likely because though he could do it for revenge for Ned Stark, he strikes me as too much like Ned to break his vows to the Wall so to me his fight brings him no where near Cersei.
 
That's a good point, common sense.

I was wondering if Arya would qualify, just being a younger sibling. The fact that Cersei is still on her little list, makes it an interesting idea. I didn't think of the sister in law relationship.

One problem, stylistically, is that Arya, to date is more of a stabber than a strangler. I suppose her training could change that.
 
This brings up an interesting point of discussion. Has no one on Arya's list been killed by someone other than Arya?

I let a friend borrow my books a long time ago, and then lost track of said friend...and said books, so I can't check for myself.

Downright annoying.
 
common sense said:
You are all forgetting that Tyrion married Sansa Stark, therefore making all the Stark kids brother/sister in law to Cersei. With that in mind if you go the genderless route Arya Stark is a prime candidate since Cersei is on her list and she is training to kill, not to mention she is mistaken for a boy a lot. If it has to be strictly male well I doubt Rickon since i can't see him being able to. So that leaves Bran through the use of his powers, his motive would most likely be for the getting thrown off the roof making him a crippled. Or the least likely Jon. I say least likely because though he could do it for revenge for Ned Stark, he strikes me as too much like Ned to break his vows to the Wall so to me his fight brings him no where near Cersei.
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Nope. Sansa DID NOT marry Tyrion, despite the attempt. The marriage was not completed, because it was not consummated. The lack of sexual intercourse, the last part of the marriage rite, is fatal. Even in today's world, you can have a marriage legally annulled due to its being incomplete for lack of consummation (no divorce, no property rights, nothing, because it is as if the marriage never was). In the medieval world, proof of intercourse was required in the nobility (to ensure property and succession rights), and sometimes the poor bride was subjected to the indignity of having spectators to ensure that the deed was done. To this day, the Jewish tradition requires that the bride and groom remain in a locked room, guarded by the Rabbi, before going to the reception, as a "show" of having the time to, ah, get to know each other (in the biblical sense). Not that they do, at that point (getting a wedding dress off, and then on again, in a short period of time is very, very difficult), but the tradition nevertheless remains.

So, Sansa is not Cersei's sister-in-law. Even if she was, that does not make any of the other Starks Cersei's in-laws. Only Sansa is, whereas the Strarks would have been in-laws to Tyrion (if he had known Sansa (in the biblical sense)). My brother's wife is my sister-in-law, but my sister-in-law's sister is not my sister-in-law, only my brother's. The Baratheons are Cersei's in-laws, and no one else.
 
Clansman, I am quite sure that your argument would win in a court of law and what you are saying is correct. Non consummation is a sufficient but not necessary condition, right?

I think though, that prophecies in stories tend to be fairly slippery though. Wooden walls can be a navy, for instance.

I believe that in the middle ages, they left a lot of marriage loopholes, and cashed in only if it were expedient. It was actually handy to marry a very distant cousin, just in case the marriage didn't produce children or something else came up. I understand that it was sort of a pre nup with nobility. In Westeros, well, nobody said that Margaery was not married to Renly, even if people thought she was still a maid.

Who knows? I could see one of Tyrion or Sansa(or both) standing up to say they had consummated the marriage--just to mess with Littlefinger's plans! We know that they haven't because we have inside knowledge. But I suppose the prophecy knows that, too.

I have a harder time thinking Arya would strangle Cersei with her hands, but maybe there will be a whole book where she has to practice unarmed combat to the death. She doesn't need to work on motivation! There is no fudging needed to say that she is younger sibling of someone. Cersei assumes that it will be her own sibling, and has to be Tyrion . Isn't there a doctrine that shows that Cersei is always wrong?

There are so many choices to off Cersei. How many people hate her? Scores? Jaime still seems the most logical to me, even if there has to be some slight of hand to fit with his disability.

How about the Hound? He's a younger sib.
 
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