Why say Tyrion's a Targ?

Sorry if I'm repeating the oft-stated (life being too short to read back ;))....

If Tyrion was indeed Aerys' child, why hasn't he been "disappeared", permanently or otherwise? The thought that his blood is running through Tyrion's veins seems to be the only reason that Tywin keeps Tyrion around; off-hand, I can't think of any other reason.



And if Tyrion were a Targ, wouldn't he pose, and have posed, a direct threat to Cersei and her children (i.e. to those descendants of Tywin's whom he wants to go on ruling Westeros)?
 
Sorry if I'm repeating the oft-stated (life being too short to read back ;))....

If Tyrion was indeed Aerys' child, why hasn't he been "disappeared", permanently or otherwise? The thought that his blood is running through Tyrion's veins seems to be the only reason that Tywin keeps Tyrion around; off-hand, I can't think of any other reason.

I agree. While I don't think Tyrion's a Targ, I definitely don't see where it makes sense that Tywin would know or even suspect that Tyrion is the product of Aerys II raping his wife and yet keep Tyrion around. :confused:
 
I'm glad you guys have responded. I'll try to keep an open mind, but I freely admit that the major factor in my belief in Tyrion being a Targ is that I want it to be true. There is not a shred of proof. Nothing. Nada. Nil. Zip. Bubkes.

I like the passage I quoted (page 390 in my 2003 U.S. Bantam Spectra mass paperback... shiny, blue cover picturing Hoster Tully's funeral) because it's the only place that I've found where GRRM hints at the scenario I've described.

According to my thinking, Joanna would have hid the fact of her rape (or indiscretion) from Tywin. I don't imagine Tywin as being akin to Lord Randolph Churchill who pimped out his wife, Lady Randolph Churchill (Winston Churchill's own mother), to Edward VII of England, the King of Serbia, and many others to further his own political career. I think if Tywin had known Aerys had seduced his wife, then he'd have executed her. If Joanna was raped and Tywin knew about it, then I firmly believe he'd have butchered Aerys before Jaime even had the chance. And in either case, he'd have executed Tyrion, too. No, I think this is a secret that only Varys and Barristan now know... well, Littlefinger may have unearthed it also.

As for Joffrey's comments. Aegon IV did have numerous bastards whom he legitimized upon his deathbed. This started the Blackfyre pretenders, the last of whom was slain by Barristan in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. But I recall Tyrion's name day gift to Joffrey, a priceless history book, which Joffrey immediately used to test the blade on his new Valyrian sword. The point is that Joffrey was a poor student of history. The only value in it, to him, were the examples of debauchery. Joffrey might have blurred the lessons of many Targaryen kings... Aegon III, Aegon IV... and Aerys II.

As for the mental state of Aerys II and his sexual habits... True, we are only told of his nocturnal visits to Rhaella after he'd murdered someone... But this is at the end of his reign. What was he like before he was kidnapped? What was he like before the Defiance of Duskendale?

I have not read the conversations of Dany and Barristan recently, but it seems to me (I've already confessed my poor memory in my last post, doh!) that Aerys changed greatly after his imprisonment. Before the Darklyns captured him, he might have been a womanizer... and he might not have been. Before the Darklyns imprisoned him, he might have viewed non-Targaryens as friendly... or not. But mayhaps, his mistrust and paranoia stem from this confinement... mayhaps he only trusted Rhaella in bed after his kidnapping.

But I don't know the exact timeline of Aerys' reign. The best I could find is on A Wiki of Ice and Fire. Was Tyrion born before or after the Defiance of Duskendale?

If he was born after, then my argument would be that mayhaps Aerys was so mad at Tywin for taking so long to free him (remember that Tywin was the Hand) that he got his revenge by taking Joanna.

Does Mr. Martin have me chasing will-o-the-wisps or could I be making very good guesses in the dark?
 
I'm kind of on the fence on this one. Tyrion does have some targaryen personality quirks. He likes his bacon burned to a crisp, fascination with dragons, fire, stark white hair, that mismatched eye etc. He's got a fixation on dragons and will definitely play a part in Dany's homecoming, but is he truly one of them?
 
I have not read the conversations of Dany and Barristan recently, but it seems to me (I've already confessed my poor memory in my last post, doh!) that Aerys changed greatly after his imprisonment. Before the Darklyns captured him, he might have been a womanizer... and he might not have been. Before the Darklyns imprisoned him, he might have viewed non-Targaryens as friendly... or not. But mayhaps, his mistrust and paranoia stem from this confinement... mayhaps he only trusted Rhaella in bed after his kidnapping.

I think it's telling that no one has mentioned or even thought of Aerys' womanizing. Even those characters, like Jaime, who are predisposed to speak and think of the guy in the harshest of terms. They seem quite willing to mention Aerys' madness, sexually assaulting his wife, and burning men alive. It seems strange that they don't also mention womanizing.

If he was born after, then my argument would be that mayhaps Aerys was so mad at Tywin for taking so long to free him (remember that Tywin was the Hand) that he got his revenge by taking Joanna.

GRRM has said that Aerys' jealousy of Tywin is what led him to try to settle matters with Duskendale on his own. This led to Aerys' capture and imprisonment. It further widened the rift between Aerys and Tywin when Tywin was the one who had to lead forces to Duskendale to try and rescue Aerys.

I think Duskendale had to have occurred before Tyrion's birth.

Dontos Hollard appears to be older than Jaime and Cersei. He was old enough to be taken to King's Landing as a squire in the aftermath of the Defiance.

We know that the tourney in Lannisport after which Aerys refused to wed Rhaegar to Cersei occurred after Joanna's death/Tyrion's birth. (Cersei was 10 at the time of this tourney but was only 8 or 9 when Tyrion was born).
 
BB, good point about the lack of commentary on Aerys' dalliances. But since he's contrasted with Robert, I'll paraphrase Olenna, if I recall correctly, and say "More moderate than Robert is like saying drier than the sea."
 
We are so busy debated if Tyrion is Targaryen We forget the why would GRRM even go down that route in the first place.

In my mind, it's because the dragon needs three heads and those heads are supposed to be Targaryens:
1) Dany
2) Jon
3) Tyrion
 
Tyrion may or may not be a Targ - I don't know one way or the other - but I do not think that Tywin knew or suspected this (for the reasons I gave in Post#61).
 
We are so busy debated if Tyrion is Targaryen We forget the why would GRRM even go down that route in the first place.

In my mind, it's because the dragon needs three heads and those heads are supposed to be Targaryens:
1) Dany
2) Jon
3) Tyrion

FWIW, GRRM is on record as saying that not all of the heads necessarily have to be Targaryens.
 
Thank you Mr. Bayou for that information and yes, I was aware of it. However, it is the only reasoning that I could come up with that would explain the WHY GRRM would do such a thing to our beloved noseless dwarf. And, as HJ says, he could be bluffing and quite enjoys sending pesky readers on wild gooose chases.

I await to see what the architect of this theory has to say and will continue to stay firmly on the fence on this one.
 
Thank you Mr. Bayou for that information and yes, I was aware of it. However, it is the only reasoning that I could come up with that would explain the WHY GRRM would do such a thing to our beloved noseless dwarf. And, as HJ says, he could be bluffing and quite enjoys sending pesky readers on wild gooose chases.

I await to see what the architect of this theory has to say and will continue to stay firmly on the fence on this one.


Well I want to go on record that Im on the side of the fence that thinks Boaz and anyone else that claims this theory has a plausible chance in hell is a loon. I know the "Boaz is a loon" camp is crowded but its the including everyone else that makes me distinct.

Tywin would not allow this slight to his honor. A Lannister pays his debts. Tyrion would not be walking this earth. He would be buried in a shallow grave somewhere outside Lannisport (or alternately dont try a "Bowl of Brown")

I am unable to recognize this as a legitimate theory. I would believe that Daniel-san and Miyagi were secretly having an affair before I would believe this.
 
Mr. Miyagi?!?! Daniel-san?!?! No, you did not go there!!!!

For the record, I'm in the "Boaz is a loon" camp, too. (I'm not being left out on this one.)

But I still think Tyrion is a Targ. I've said in earlier posts that the main reason for my fascination with Tyrion as a Targ is that I want it to be true and not because of any proof. I'm going to obstinate and completely illogical about this.... you'll not change my mind.
 
Well... uh, basically I'm obstinate to you guys.... but when Raven posts, I usually change my mind to agree with him. I need a John Kerry avatar...
 
Well part of Boaz's theory is that Tywin is unaware of Tyrion's true heritage and isn't suffering any slights to his honor (yet). So it COULD be viable, maybe.
 
For the record, I'm in the "Boaz is a loon" camp, too. (I'm not being left out on this one.)

I don't think that you're a loon, Boaz.





(I'll leave you to guess whether or not this is due to my dislike of being a member of a herd. ;):))
 
Semi-necro, but I feel it might be worth bringing up the following:
If it's not Tyrion that's supposed to be the third head, who is?
Suppose the bastards are Cersei and Jaime. Then there's two heads, and one more including Dany. However, I am not inclined to believe that since Jon has my vote for "Missing Targaryen of the Year".
Anybody else? No. GRRM usually has a habit of dropping lines of people being mentioned before they are introduced. Unless there's a sudden new character around the corner, I am in the camp of Tyrion Targaryen.
 
Slight bump! :p This is the best thread that popped when I googled "Tyrion Targaryen".

From what I've read in the books, Tywin was a pretty smart man. It's not that far-fetched to think that he at least suspected the fact that Tyrion is not his son. And he kept the dwarf by his side for the same reason Eddard would have hidden Jon (I feel like one of those crazed theorists).

If Robert knew about Tyrion, wouldn't that have made him very very angry with the Lannisters? No more marriage, no more perks.

After Robert died, Tywin sent Tyrion on the most dangerous jobs a lord would be expected to take - vanguard of an attack, ruling a wartorn land etc. Coming out in the open with his suspicions after Robert's death would have given him or his family no advantage.

[/crackpot]
 
I know Tywin was a cold hearted, ruthless and ambitious guy. But it is always possible he did really love his wife, and made some promises to her. Or maybe not. Kellanved has good points too. Along that line, ruining Tyrion's marriage, he also prevented him from having a legal heir. By precipitating the gang rape, he obfuscated the parentage of any child. Haven't thought that through.
 

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