Why say Tyrion's a Targ?

[Hilarious Joke]

Welcome to the Chrons, kellanved, I hope you stick around...

 

[Boaz]

Welcome, kellanved.

I don't think Robert knew many secrets... he was rarely sober enough or intelliegent enough to grasp the subtleties of a situation.

Tyrion's musings and thoughts regarding delicate issues, such as the cause of Robert's death, Cersei's fidelity, Joffrey's legitimacy, who ordered Eddard's death, Sansa's health, who was behind Mandon Moore, and even what was in Joffrey's wine cup, were all kept very quiet. He never aired political dirty laundry in public, except for the time he assaulted Joffrey after they escaped from the mob. He never gossiped about his family, except with Bronn and Shae. He told Littlefinger, Varys, the Small Council, the Tyrells, and the Martells nothing that they did not already know. Tywin would never have killed Tyrion for having loose lips... in fact, I personally think (even though no one else does) that both Shae and Bronn were agents of Tywin from the beginning. Tywin knew that Tyrion, except when whores were concerned, strove to imitate his leadership style. Tywin sent Tyrion to be Hand because he knew that Tyrion could be counted on to stridently pursue Lannister goals.

Eulalia, that's a great observation.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I think all this just proves that Tyrion is a true Lannister. His aunt Genna told it true.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Maybe so. But I am thinking that if you are brought up and taught in a certain way, that's how you will lead your life. In other words, Tyrion would act like a Lannister regardless of his actual lineage.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Maybe, but remember that in Westeros our ideas about nature vs. nurture and actual genetics don't really work. I think that if he wasn't an actual Lannister he could never act that way.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

That would be an interesting question to ask GRRM, because I don't think we'd agree on this.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Well, he's stated before that modern concepts like science don't apply to lineage and behavior in his world. For example, the physical characteristics of the various noble houses seem to mostly be preserved from generation to generation, despite the fact that after any reasonable span of generations they would have blended together as it were.

There are certain exceptions to this, but for the most part we have situations like how Lannisters have been pretty and blond for thousands of years or how the Starks have always been stern and grey and chiseled (until Cat's children, which in GRRM's world must have signifigance).

The Targaryens are, ironically, the most realistically presented House. They've been inbreeding for three centuries, so it would only make sense for them to bear incredibly strong resemblances and frequently manifest dementia and other defects. The other effect of inbreeding is to promote the positive characteristics of a strain. So the axom about Targaryens being either mad or great is actually borne up by the real world example of true bred dogs. After a while, any litter will have individuals who are either defective or more or less perfect to the standard of whatever strain it is.

So, you say, I've just disproved my own point with the example I provided. Tyrion isn't pretty or (totally) blond so he can't be a real Lannister! Well, I think this is where the other part comes in. Character and personality also seem to be hereditary, at least partially, in Westeros. You have all these houses of individuals, yet a character study will reveal they are all much more similar to one another than people from other houses. This is logically explained by being raised in proximity and brainwashed with the values and customs of their house, but there's something else.

I'm not doing my best at presenting evidence to support my case, but this is kind of an intangible point I'm working here anyway. Maybe a hunch isn't the right word, but I just have a really strong feeling that Tyrion is not only a true Lannister, but the most Lannister of them all.

 

[Raven]

He never gossiped about his family, except with Bronn and Shae.

So he never gossiped, except with a sellsword and a whore? This is not what I would call a resounding proof of someone's discretion.

in fact, I personally think (even though no one else does) that both Shae and Bronn were agents of Tywin from the beginning.

Don't worry, Boaz, you're not alone - I've seen lots of people suggest exactly that. But it can't be so, IMO.

Bronn, especially, can't have been Tywin's man right from the start, because the circumstances under which he met Tyrion and those under which he subsequently entered Tyrion's service were flat-out impossible for Tywin to have predicted. There is no way Tywin could have arranged for Bronn to enter Tyrion's service, and no reason why he'd want to anyway. At that time Tyrion was accompanied by loyal Lannister men who presumably had the job (amongst others) of keeping an eye on Tyrion for his father.

Could he later have been in the pay of Tywin? Possible but unlikely. Tywin would need to have arranged this from a distance, unless it happened late on: and he had bigger fish to fry. Besides, again, Tyrion was then in the Red Keep, a place where Tywin undoubtedly already had informers. I can't see the need for the subterfuge.

As for Shae, if we accept that Bronn wasn't in Tywin's pay when he obtained her that makes it unlikely she was planted by Tywin in the first place. There's a stronger case for her later being in Tywin's pay, of course: her presence in his bedchamber indicates some connection. But it could have begun during or after Tyrion's trial.

Besides, both suppositions are undermined by the fact that Tywin never acted as if he had information that either Bronn or Shae could have given him.

Maybe, but remember that in Westeros our ideas about nature vs. nurture and actual genetics don't really work. I think that if he wasn't an actual Lannister he could never act that way.

Our ideas of genetics don't work, but clearly, behaviour is slightly different. Lannisters don't uniformly turn out like Tywin: his own father was very different, Daven and Kevan are different again, and so on. Nor do Lannisters have a monopoly on Tywin-like natures. In fact, some Targaryens would have had a lot in common with Tyrion, behaviourally.

 

[mercymydarling]

I'm new, so I probably shouldn't even open my pie-hole, but I find the theory of Cersei and Jaime being Targ's much more intriguing than Tyrion being one.

 

[Boaz]

Welcome mercymydarling. We have a rule (I can't find it now) that we don't lambast anyone here, nor denigrate the content of their posts... that is until they have seventeen or eighteen posts under their belt. So you're on holy ground for a while.

I've been searching for a reset button for my post count. I need sanctuary from all the meanies here.

 

[mercymydarling]

I don't mind being lambasted. It's what the internet is for, right?

And I've been reading these boards for a while now, and I must say, Boaz, you are totally my favorite. *g*

 

[Boaz]

Mercy, mercy, me. First, there really is an informal, gentlemen's agreement that we show courtesy to new members. Second, the internet is not for lambasting. If you've played WoW and watch youtube, then you'll know what the internet is for. 'Nuff said. Third, please keep public adulation towards yours truly to a minimum. Other posters get jealous real fast. I do acknowledge that I deserve it, of course. It's like, well, my communication skills are like... what's the word... totally awesome. But for the sake of a peaceful community, let's keep it on the down low. Fourth, what's up with the *g*? Is that your signature? Fifth, I think you are my friend in Ithaca. Hey, get back to class! You've got final exams coming up! Don't come here and ruin my slice of heaven on earth. Sixth, why do you like the idea of Jaime and Cersei being Targs? I like it. I like it a lot. In fact, I like the idea of Tywin being continually cuckolded by Aerys.

 

[mercymydarling]

Boaz, I actually stopped playing WoW for a while because someone already had a toon named Tyrion and thus I was sad.

*g* = *grin* That is some old-school netspeaks. And I am not your friend from Ithaca, though I do hope he/she does well on exams. *g*

I like the idea of Cersei and Jaime being Targs for many of the reasons already stated here: the idea of Tywin raising them without realizing it is delicious... almost as delicious as Tywin knowing and being unable to find a way around it, especially once Tyrion is born. Plus, the whole "incest = genetic?" thing would amuse me, and Cersei certainly has some of the insanity that the Targs are famous for. The idea of her ending up as crazy as Aerys while Jaime goes on to try to redeem himself (which is how I see things going), and ending up as honorable as his half-brother Rhaegar is quite delightful, too.

Tyrion, though... Tyrion could only be Tywin's. In my brain, anyway. He is, after all, Tywin "writ small", albiet a much more interesting version.

 

[Ursa major]

That is a delicious thought, mercymydarling. In fact, it's such a good thought that GRRM won't let it be true now that it's out in the open.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

Well, if you say Cersei and Jaime are Targaryens, then tell me who their parents were?
I dare to riposte and parry your idea
You see, it is very clearly stated that the twins have blonde hair. The Targaryens were very clearly pictured as silveryblonde. Quite a difference.
No, I will stick to the idea that Tyrion's the odd one out. No pun intended.

Quick note: Nobody's still mentioning Tywin's incestuous relationship with his cousin?
Quick note two: Isn't anybody's parentage known?

 

[Boaz]

What? Tywin and his cousin? Joanna was his cousin? I figured she was another fair haired descendent of the western Andals, but cousin? I think I missed that one.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

I'm more interested in the apparent intricate mysteries of Boaz' wide-reaching and varied internet hookups, I mean friendships.

 

[mercymydarling]

Syphon, I was going on the same theory everyone was using for Tyrion: that Aerys took/raped their mother and then they were born. And the Lannisters are known for their blondness, and the Targs for their silvery-blondeness, but then, in arguements about Jon Snow being Lyanna and Rhaegar's, it's theorized that the Targ genes aren't dominant... it only seems that way because of all the Targs breeding with each other.

 

[Boaz]

My friend in Ithaca is a friend in real life. I know he sometimes lurks this forum so he can call me up and mock my latest ideas. I just figured he finally registered and posted... I figured he was trying to put one over on me.

You'll never know anything about my relationships, but now you know the scope of my paranoia.

It helps me to visualize Aerys fathering children upon Tywin's wife. If he did that three times, then it helps foment the ideas of Jaime fathering children upon another man's wife, Jaime's six month imprisonment, Cersei's concepts of justice, Cersei's use of wildfire, Tyrion's love of dragons, Tyrion's use of wildfire, Jaime's and Cersei's incest would be forgiven, and their lack of filial love for Tywin... like father, like sons and daughter.

Edit: I guess I'm covering all of my bases by now asserting that all three of Tywin's children were actually sired by Aerys II.

Second Edit: Rereading this post... it's ludicrous. I need something to get a fresh and proper perspective...

Mabe I should try a combination of crack, meth, and heroin... Seriously, I've heard good things.

 

[Raven]

That is a delicious thought, mercymydarling. In fact, it's such a good thought that GRRM won't let it be true now that it's out in the open.

GRRM never reads internet forums about the book, precisely so that he won't drop good ideas just 'cause some smartass guessed them.

This idea, though - I'd stake my house it isn't true, if I actually owned my house.

What? Tywin and his cousin? Joanna was his cousin? I figured she was another fair haired descendent of the western Andals, but cousin? I think I missed that one.

Yes, Joanna was Tywin's cousin. It's the chink in his armour, the exception to his rules. He loved his wife genuinely, she was the only one that could make him smile, and for all his plots and plans about marriage alliances for Cersei and Jaime, he himself married within the family and for love.