Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Brian G Turner]

Re: Jon Snow

I think the people talking about "resurrecting" Jon have never seen a republican TV series, where the main characters almost always appeared to die at the end of each episode.

Four stab wounds? Pah - most fantasy heroes have suffered worse and lived to conquer the world.

 

[viZion]

Re: Jon Snow

As a general question for some of you, why does leaving a character in mortal peril and resurrecting have to be in the same conversation? GRRM has used "true" resurrection twice and only one of those was really successful, as Cat was in the water too long. It's not as if he's killed people off over and over again and then POOF, they're back. Leaving characters in peril at the end of chapters (Bran was the first) has been a device that GRRM has used a lot, and IMO it's part of what has created the wonderful tension that this series maintains. Whether Jon is dead, or not, or resurrected, or not, will not be an overuse of any device that GRRM has used, at least IMO>

I only brought it up because you mentioned you thought Jon surviving the stab wounds would be cheesy(er). I wasn't criticizing GRRM using the cliffhanger-chapter-ending technique. I was merely pointing out there's an even greater precedent of him "saving" a character from certain death than there is of using resurrection. So again, why would surviving the stab wounds be cheesier than Mel suddenly having the ability to perform a resurrection?

As I Brian points out, four stab wounds is nothing even in this series. I was trying to point out that Tyrion (and Bran and Asha and Brienne, etc) have been in much worse situations and survived. I guess I just like to keep things simple until there's a reason to consider a more complicated possibility. Simplest is that the four stabs wounds aren't fatal. More complicated is Mel resurrecting him. Still more complicated is him warging into another character or animal. And I'll mention, again, that getting resurrected might lead to him losing his POV (precendent: because Catelyn lost hers).

 

[No One]

Re: Jon Snow

As I Brian points out, four stab wounds is nothing even in this series.

At least four stab wounds - I suspect it'll turn out to be substantially more.

Plus, as I said before, there's no doubt in my mind that his throat was cut worse than he realised. To my mind, this is not a cliff-hanger, just a question of the method by which Jon is re-introduced - resurrection, healed a la Victarion (if that's possible given his wounds), or warging.

Or who knows, maybe he's a wight now. The last thing he felt was the cold...

 

[cape_royds]

Re: Jon Snow

We know that Lyanna and Rhaegar had an affinity for each other. But we also know that Rhaegar was already married. We also know that Rhaegar was nothing if not honorable. Why would he secretly elope with a daughter of one of the peers of the realm? It would make more sense to openly marry her to heal the strife between King's Landing and Winterfell. Why would he ever abduct and rape Lyanna? That would have been out of character for him, but not for his father... the Mad King.

The one thing that could make Rhaegar cheat on Elia would be the same thing that made that once bookish boy take up the craft of arms: a higher duty. Rhaegar read the prophecy. He realized what he must do, even if it did not really suit his tastes. Rhaegar was no more a natural womanizer than he was a natural warrior. As Barristan said, Rhaegar was simply good at any task he set himself to do. He carried off Lyanna, but it was seduction, not rape. Moreover, I think he explained to Lyanna his purpose, and Lyanna, full of the impulsive wild wolf blood as she was, had no problem with being swept up in that romantic tale, no matter what the impact on her kin, or on her betrothed. Her fervour to save her baby was compounded by her own knowledge of the prophecy. Howland Reed's preternatural green-sense would also have helped Ned realize what was at stake, although the grounded, ever-sensible Eddard might never have really embraced the notion of Jon's destiny.

Remember that Jaime asked Rhaegar to ride with him to the Trident, but Rhaegar told him no... Rhaegar told Jaime that he'd come back and call a great council of all the lords and that he would set things right.

But Brandon Stark got word of Lyanna's disappearance... and all hell broke loose.

Rhaegar told Jaime of his intention to call a council just before he rode off to the Trident to fight Robert in the last great battle of the war. Would not have Brandon been long dead by that time?


BTW Catelyn's coldness and hostility towards Jon was one of the things that kept Jon safe. What could better corroborate the story of Jon's bastardy than his stepmother's open, obviously unpretended hatred? Ned paid the price in his marriage to help keep his nephew safe.

Also, Catelyn was an ambitious woman always pondering the dynastic implications of everything. If she knew about Jon's heritage, that could be dangerous. She might have looked for a way to destroy Jon anyhow, simply to try to keep her House out of any potential danger.

 

[RaZar]

Re: Jon Snow

I Concede with what was said before about that if the prophecy needs to be fulfilled Jon Snow must die. However the manner of his resurrection i believe was hinted at strongly in the prologue in what was said about the number of lives a warg has. Remember that Varamyr Six Skins mentioned how many times he died and was reborn not through wargin into another human which is considered an abomination according to haggon. Varamyr in his afore demise contemplations says clearly that this death which is his tenth would be the last and final one and that's why he tried to get into another human body. He also mentions that Haggon second death was final because he ate his heart which i think is one of the ways to end the resurrection of a warg before he consumes all his lives. Haggon also says clearly to Varamyr that he will die a dozen deaths and every one will
hurt but when his true death comes, he will live again. The second life in this case would be as part of the wolf in Jon's case but the time for his true death IMO has not come yet and he will be reborn as the other wargs had before him.

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

I Concede with what was said before about that if the prophecy needs to be fulfilled Jon Snow must die. However the manner of his resurrection i believe was hinted at strongly in the prologue in what was said about the number of lives a warg has. Remember that Varamyr Six Skins mentioned how many times he died and was reborn not through wargin into another human which is considered an abomination according to haggon. Varamyr in his afore demise contemplations says clearly that this death which is his tenth would be the last and final one and that's why he tried to get into another human body. He also mentions that Haggon second death was final because he ate his heart which i think is one of the ways to end the resurrection of a warg before he consumes all his lives. Haggon also says clearly to Varamyr that he will die a dozen deaths and every one will
hurt but when his true death comes, he will live again. The second life in this case would be as part of the wolf in Jon's case but the time for his true death IMO has not come yet and he will be reborn as the other wargs had before him.

I agree that Jon warging will be involved Jon remaining alive, however, the deaths Varamyr is speaking of were all deaths in which he was part of an animal when the animal died, not in his own human skin.

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Re: Jon Snow

I agree that Jon warging will be involved Jon remaining alive, however, the deaths Varamyr is speaking of were all deaths in which he was part of an animal when the animal died, not in his own human skin.

So i'm assuming he will come back as "Jon 2 skins". I won't think GRRM is overusing the resurrecting idea until he becomes "Jon 4 skins". By that time Varamyr will be "9 skins", or did he pass that already, ohh never mind i'm confusing myself now

 

[Jaqen H'gar]

Re: Jon Snow

When Varamyr talks about experiencing many deaths, I think he is simply talking about the animals he is possessing dying while he is still in them, which he is used to, and why he describes being in the eagle as Melisandre burns it as so strange because it was magic fire and it "came from within him"

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Re: Jon Snow

The breath of life is clearly something all Red Priests are taught or at least told about, how else would Thoros have this awesome power? He wasn't even a very devout priest before he brought Beric Dondarrion back, so certainly not on the same level as Melisandre and Moroqqo.

Also, Melisandre's powers are vastly greater at the Wall. She's also very fond of Jon, or at least, convinced of his usefulness and importance.

Something else that is bothering me is what was happening to Wun Wun? I assume that Patrek whatshisface was trying to sneak by to have his way with Val, but was that under his own power or did someone tell him to? Who is involved with this conspiracy? I wouldn't be surprised to learn Queen Selyse is part of it.

That brings up something else. There is definitely something going on with greyscale. I had assumed it was just kind of disease in this world, but we learned through Tyrion's chapters that is supernatural in origin and at least partially supernatural in practice. Val considers something to be dreadfully wrong with Shireen, beyond simply being concerned she might still be contagious. That, with Melisandre's stated mistrust and dislike of Patchface the fool, and how close these two weirdos are so close has me convinced there is something, maybe not quite evil yet, but definitely not good there.

I am fairly sure that Melisandre will at least attempt to resurrect Jon. Whether that will work or not is something else. If she isn't successful, then I don't see much hope for resisting the Others at the Wall. Jon is pretty much the only capable leader the Watch has, it being made very clear that most of the Watch is too narrow-minded and stupid to realize the real threat is the Others and not the wildlings.

 

[Gry Wnd]

Re: Jon Snow

Jon told everyone (Patrek was present) that the only way to get Val is to take her or steal her.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

I've3 been reading over the House of Undying prophecy, the Rhaegar section in particular. i'm totally convinced now that-

The woman with Rhaegar was Lyanna Stark

Jon Snow is the true Aegon.

Aegon/Young Griff is a feint contrived by Varys to buy time.

Jon=Aegon=Azor Ahai. He will be re-born when he is ressurrected after dying at the end of ADWD. He will the the unifying force that bonds ice with Fire and will probably NOT be one of the heads of the dragon.

Apologies if this isn't new, but it's new to ME I've never thought of the woman with Rhaegar in the vision as being Lyanna.

 

[viZion]

Re: Jon Snow

What do you mean by Jon is the true Aegon? That he's the son of Rhaegar and Elia? Or do you mean the true "Aegon", i.e. he's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna but still the Prince that Was Promised?

 

[Bazza]

Re: Jon Snow

I always thought that it was Elia with Rhaegar, because they call the baby "Aegon". But I think that the prophecies Rheagar read, led him to think Azor Ahai/TPTWP WOULD be Aegon because it was his only son and he was not like to have another with Elia (she wasn't the most healthy of women).

He did not foresee that Jon would be begat from Lyanna. His is the true song of Ice and Fire and the true TPTWP.

 

[viZion]

Re: Jon Snow

I just thought of this today...Does Jon *have* to die and be resurrected (which I hate) in order to be "reborn"? Seriously, I can't stand the idea of Mel resurrecting him so I'm trying to come up with something else.

What I mean is, what if his stab wounds appear fatal but aren't? And, certainly, the intent is to kill him so if he survives the stabbings maybe that could count as being "reborn" without having to resort to lamely convenient Red Priests in the general vicinity. Just saying.

Also, if Jon is The Prince That Was Promised I'm still calling that Lightbringer is actually the dragon that was living under Winterfell and not a sword.

 

[Culhwch]

Re: Jon Snow

Why does he have to be reborn at all? If he is Azor Ahai reborn, wouldn't that have happened when he was, you know, born? In that Azor Ahai lived and died, and then was reborn in Jon when he was born.

I also don't buy this idea that death will release him from his vows. He broke his vows when he declared he was going south - before he died. Dying isn't going to change that - if he is resurrected, he'll still be an oathbreaker. Just a zombie oathbreaker.

 

[viZion]

Re: Jon Snow

Oh, I thought the whole reason people were pushing for Mel to resurrect him was so he could be "reborn" and fulfill the legend. I found this on the ASOIAF Wiki:

The prophesy states that "when the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone." This will occur after a long summer when an evil, cold darkness descends upon the world.

I'm not so sure that Jon's birth really fulfills the prophecy. Him "dying" right now and surviving his wounds would more closely fulfill that prophecy. Either way, I don't care as long as he doesn't become unJon. Ugh.

 

[Gry Wnd]

Re: Jon Snow

I've3 been reading over the House of Undying prophecy, the Rhaegar section in particular. i'm totally convinced now that-

The woman with Rhaegar was Lyanna Stark

Jon Snow is the true Aegon.

Aegon/Young Griff is a feint contrived by Varys to buy time.

Jon=Aegon=Azor Ahai. He will be re-born when he is ressurrected after dying at the end of ADWD. He will the the unifying force that bonds ice with Fire and will probably NOT be one of the heads of the dragon.

Apologies if this isn't new, but it's new to ME I've never thought of the woman with Rhaegar in the vision as being Lyanna.

Just heard this on a podcast and I haven't seen it here yet so..

1. The knight Wun Wun was holding over Jon had a star as his sigil.

2. The salt was Marshed tears

3. The Smoke from his wound

And there was the dream he had that he was cutting down Others with a Bright (forget exact word) sword

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

Re: Jon Snow

I also didn't think Jon needed to die now to be reborn (if he is Azor Ahai). I was thinking along the same lines as Cul.

And is the red star still 'bleeding'? I don't remember reading anything about it recently in the books.

Doesn't Dany fulfill the prophecy a little better than Jon (at least up to this point)? She woke her dragons from stone the night she saw the red star, and there was smoke from the funeral pyre and salt from her tears.

 

[the smiling weirwood]

Re: Jon Snow

I don't think all the bits of the prophecy have to happen concurrently. The way it is phrased doesn't support that anyway.

Dany was born amidst salt and smoke on the volcanic island of Dragonstone, and then later she woke dragons from stone.

The way it reads is that waking the dragons is the purpose of this person, "to wake dragons from stone" and not something that happens when they are "born" or not.

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

I agree with TSW here. Dany has fulfilled this prophecy. I still think though that someone, imo Dany or possibly Jon if he is who we think he is, will wake the stone dragons at Dragonstone.