Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Tallin]

Re: Jon Snow

I thought just the same. Having all hair burned and alive means that she's most likely almost fireproof.

But back to Jon. For me its quite confusing that he was murdered at that moment, after wildlings are all over the wall. Basically he is only link between wildlings, the watch and queen men so I think that killing him will unleash swift mayhem as Tormund and wildlings are likely to take his side and strike the watch and queens man the moment Jon got stabbed. They outnumber watch, and in bloody, unorganized close combat should do better then watchers. Moment Jon got stabbed situation was very dangerous and even with Jon alive there was danger of violence breakthrought. It may be there waren't more dagger strikes after this 4 because carnage could begin just a moment later. If so watch can be utterly destroyed, or badly damaged (if they would fight their own civil war amongs their own ranks). Jon would be responsible of destruction of brotherhood that traced back thousands years, full of remorses and regrets, so that mayhem can suit sadistic approach that GRRM likes. Also he can become some kind of leader to the wildlings. Maybe new king-over-the-wall-at-this-side-of-wall. That would bring another pack of doubts to him.

I thought it was obvious why they did this now: Jon has just announced that he is going to Winterfell and drag the Watch irrevocably into the Game of Thrones. Pretty clear, really. They may not have agreed with his other decisions, but they did not go directly against the mandate of the Watch.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

Jon is dead, Ned didn't miraculously escaped headsman's axe, Robb died at Red Wedding and so did Cathelyn. Martins writing do not include fantastic plots made in anticipation of dangerous events, even if someone tries to do something like that it usually backfires.

Jon made dangerous decisions as Lord Commander, going to Winterfell being the last one. It was pretty obvious that something is going to happen.

My personal opinion is that GRRM is going to use Jon's death as sort of "probe" to his readers to see is he going to re install him in the series or to leave him dead.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Jon is dead, Ned didn't miraculously escaped headsman's axe, Robb died at Red Wedding and so did Cathelyn. Martins writing do not include fantastic plots made in anticipation of dangerous events, even if someone tries to do something like that it usually backfires.

Jon made dangerous decisions as Lord Commander, going to Winterfell being the last one. It was pretty obvious that something is going to happen.

My personal opinion is that GRRM is going to use Jon's death as sort of "probe" to his readers to see is he going to re install him in the series or to leave him dead.

Welcome to the forum

So your theory is that Jon is dead, but GRRM will bring him back if enough people are upset with him being dead, or just don't want him out of the series? SO then maybe Jon isn't dead, if enough people wish it to be that way. Kind of like Tinkerbell in Peter Pan. Right.

People had some interesting thoughts in this thread http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/533403-grrms-pattern-huge-spoilers-through-book5.html and Needle has posted a wonderful theory about Jon not being dead.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Re: Jon Snow

I still don't understand why people think Jon Snow is dead. We've seen plenty of other characters wounded - Tyrion comes to mind especially. The difference here is that it was at the end of a book, but to myself never offered the suggestion of a major character about to be killed - whereas with other major characters it was obvious this would happen long before.

If Jon really were dead and plays no further active role in the story, it would be an incredibly flat and meaningless death and out of character with the previous volumes IMO.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

Welcome to the forum

So your theory is that Jon is dead, but GRRM will bring him back if enough people are upset with him being dead, or just don't want him out of the series? SO then maybe Jon isn't dead, if enough people wish it to be that way. Kind of like Tinkerbell in Peter Pan. Right.

People had some interesting thoughts in this thread and Needle has posted a wonderful theory about Jon not being dead.

Read Needles theory and is great, also read your post and can see the pattern. However exactly because there IS the pattern personally would like Martin to change something. When first read description of Jon's murder, it felt wrong. Can't really explain it, but simply is not possible to return Jon from the dead or to manipulate his demise in the way that he somehow actually survived (probably influenced by my own experience, I've been few meters from young man stabbed by knife - he died in mater of minutes), and not came up with some sort of extraordinary explanation, which, by my opinion deteriorates quality of writing, or do something like "Oh well, Jon died but Melisandre brought him back just like that", which insults intelligence of the reader.

My opinion is that Martin shouldn't killed Jon if he intends to revive/make him escape death by the hears thread. For me Jon is then better dead, although it is not probable, considering how much time and effort Martin invested in this character. And thus my bitterness, Jon was my favored character,and his killing was not my favored scene in the ASoIaF, but killing him off for me works better than to deteriorate quality of Martins writing, because I still love series more than single character.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Read Needles theory and is great, also read your post and can see the pattern. However exactly because there IS the pattern personally would like Martin to change something. When first read description of Jon's murder, it felt wrong. Can't really explain it, but simply is not possible to return Jon from the dead or to manipulate his demise in the way that he somehow actually survived (probably influenced by my own experience, I've been few meters from young man stabbed by knife - he died in mater of minutes), and not came up with some sort of extraordinary explanation, which, by my opinion deteriorates quality of writing, or do something like "Oh well, Jon died but Melisandre brought him back just like that", which insults intelligence of the reader.

My opinion is that Martin shouldn't killed Jon if he intends to revive/make him escape death by the hears thread. For me Jon is then better dead, although it is not probable, considering how much time and effort Martin invested in this character. And thus my bitterness, Jon was my favored character,and his killing was not my favored scene in the ASoIaF, but killing him off for me works better than to deteriorate quality of Martins writing, because I still love series more than single character.

The thing is though, GRRM has estanlished at least two different ways that Jon could be brought back, or rather, one way he could be brought back and another way that makes it unnecessary to even do so.

Let's assume that Jon is actually dead, which would really be breaking the pattern that I think exists. It was established early on in the series that Red Priests can bring the dead back. We've seen Thoros bring Beric Dondarrion back, in fact, it's likely that Beric was brought back before we even met him for the first time in aGoT.

I personally think that Jon wargs out of the body( the last thing he feels is cold) and waits in one of the sotred corpses until Mel raises his dead body, maybe in such a time frame that no one knows he's alive. In any event, IF Jon is "dead', and we don't know that for sure, GRRM has a number of ways to bring him bacl that have been foreshadowed in the series

 

[Mesanna]

Re: Jon Snow

I don't think that Melisandre bringing Jon back would insult the reader's intelligence. That a Red Priest has the skills to bring someone back from the dead is already part of the canon, as we've seen with Beric Dondarrion and Catelyn, so what's one more walking, talking zombie!

When I read about Jon's stabbing, I was shocked but, to be honest, I never once felt that this was the last we would see of him. Between the storylines about warging and Melisandre's hints about Jon being in danger, I felt it was highly likely that he was going to be saved somehow. Basically, I will be completely shocked if Jon stays dead.

I feel the biggest puzzle with Jon is why he suddenly decided to go off to Winterfell. That decision just felt all wrong and out of character to me.

EDIT: I see The Imp has beat me to it with the point about Beric.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

I don't think that Melisandre bringing Jon back would insult the reader's intelligence. That a Red Priest has the skills to bring someone back from the dead is already part of the canon, as we've seen with Beric Dondarrion and Catelyn, so what's one more walking, talking zombie!

When I read about Jon's stabbing, I was shocked but, to be honest, I never once felt that this was the last we would see of him. Between the storylines about warging and Melisandre's hints about Jon being in danger, I felt it was highly likely that he was going to be saved somehow. Basically, I will be completely shocked if Jon stays dead.

I feel the biggest puzzle with Jon is why he suddenly decided to go off to Winterfell. That decision just felt all wrong and out of character to me.

EDIT: I see The Imp has beat me to it with the point about Beric.

You make a great point about the letter. The letter and Jon's reaction to it were so over the top that one would think that it was staged and acted for the benefit of the audience (the rest of the NW)

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

The thing is though, GRRM has estanlished at least two different ways that Jon could be brought back, or rather, one way he could be brought back and another way that makes it unnecessary to even do so.

Let's assume that Jon is actually dead, which would really be breaking the pattern that I think exists. It was established early on in the series that Red Priests can bring the dead back. We've seen Thoros bring Beric Dondarrion back, in fact, it's likely that Beric was brought back before we even met him for the first time in aGoT.

I personally think that Jon wargs out of the body( the last thing he feels is cold) and waits in one of the sotred corpses until Mel raises his dead body, maybe in such a time frame that no one knows he's alive. In any event, IF Jon is "dead', and we don't know that for sure, GRRM has a number of ways to bring him bacl that have been foreshadowed in the series

It is good theory, as I sad before, and maybe, if that really happens, Martin manages to pull it off good enough to satisfy most of the readers. It simply doesn't work for me, Jon is not Petyr Baelish, and preparing stored cold bodies in case of betrayal from those he trust doesn't "sit well" with my perception of his character. Samwell is no longer around to give him some sound advice, and Jon has newer been good player of The Game.

About Beric in my next post.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

I don't think that Melisandre bringing Jon back would insult the reader's intelligence. That a Red Priest has the skills to bring someone back from the dead is already part of the canon, as we've seen with Beric Dondarrion and Catelyn, so what's one more walking, talking zombie!

When I read about Jon's stabbing, I was shocked but, to be honest, I never once felt that this was the last we would see of him. Between the storylines about warging and Melisandre's hints about Jon being in danger, I felt it was highly likely that he was going to be saved somehow. Basically, I will be completely shocked if Jon stays dead.

I feel the biggest puzzle with Jon is why he suddenly decided to go off to Winterfell. That decision just felt all wrong and out of character to me.

EDIT: I see The Imp has beat me to it with the point about Beric.

Red Priest indeed has power to bring somebody back, but it is no longer the same person. Beric Dondarrion was more zombie than human after all the resurrections, and Cathelyn died at the Red Wedding, there is no coincidence her reanimated body is now called Lady Stoneheart. And, again, Jon was my favorite character, and him being wraith for the sake of R'hllor is just mildly better than him being wraith for The Great Other.

Yes, I agree that is highly unlikely that he will stay dead. I just don't see how will Martin pull off his resurrection or whatever and keep consistency with previous writing (Jon NOT being master player in A Game of Thrones, in bad terms with Melisandre etc, etc...).

My guess is that answer to that question is actually answer to what all readers are thinking - why Jon and why now?

 

[grip junky]

Re: Jon Snow

At first I was stunned by his quick death. Now I do not think he died at all. He was getting ready to march off to war, so I would think he had armor on, and heavy winter clothes. I think he is wounded but not dead.

I watch the tv show Lock Up with my Nephews ( they love it , I hate it) and one of the things the cons do if they think someone is going to try and kill them is put on all their clothing, to help from being stabbed to deep. It is suprising how many of them survive brutal attacks.

 

[Mesanna]

Re: Jon Snow

You make a great point about the letter. The letter and Jon's reaction to it were so over the top that one would think that it was staged and acted for the benefit of the audience (the rest of the NW)

Ha! Is this another conspiracy theory brewing!

I felt that Jon had long ago made peace with his vows to the Night Watch. He almost left when Eddard was killed, but was persuaded otherwise. And there was that little speech from Maester Aemon about how he almost broke his vows, that I feel had a profound effect on Jon. I believe that Jon has long since accepted that the Starks represent his past and his future is with the Night Watch.

So, when he suddenly decides to up and off to save Arya, it seemed to fly in the face of his previous POV. Now I know that Jon and Arya were very close and probably cared more for each other than for any other sibling, but still it didn't feel right to me. Why is Jon suddenly reversing a decision made a long time ago and changing a whole mindset that he went through a fair bit of grief to acquire. Surely there has to be more than just saving Arya? After Eddard was killed, Arya was generally believed to be held prisoner with Sansa, yet he didn't rush off to Kings Landing to save her then. So why now? Just because she's going to be forced to marry a guy he knows she wouldn't care for? Nah. There's got to be more to this.

I welcome any and all crackpot theories!

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Red Priest indeed has power to bring somebody back, but it is no longer the same person. Beric Dondarrion was more zombie than human after all the resurrections, and Cathelyn died at the Red Wedding, there is no coincidence her reanimated body is now called Lady Stoneheart. And, again, Jon was my favorite character, and him being wraith for the sake of R'hllor is just mildly better than him being wraith for The Great Other.

Yes, I agree that is highly unlikely that he will stay dead. I just don't see how will Martin pull off his resurrection or whatever and keep consistency with previous writing (Jon NOT being master player in A Game of Thrones, in bad terms with Melisandre etc, etc...).

My guess is that answer to that question is actually answer to what all readers are thinking - why Jon and why now?

There is a very large difference between Catelyn being dead in the water for days and bringing someone back seconds after they die. Her body, in addition to being severely damaged by what cause her deatt (slashed throat), was also damaged by the natural process of decay. In the case of Beric, I never felt he acted like a "zombie", and one certainly wouldn't have thought that about him when he accpeted the responsibility to hunt down Gregor. Perhaps a little bit of the life force, the soul, DOES die with each resurrection, or more accurately, a piece stays dead and can't be brought back. The end result is a limited number of resurrections.

Which brings me to Jon. I've pointed to the Varamyr prologue as being extremely important, and a s close to a "users manual for warg" that exists in the canon. Jon could warg out of his body and as long as he didn't go into another living human being he could return as long as he had a living body to return to. The bodies being kept "on ice" were there for a reason and I believe that reason was told to us bu Jon, except he manipulated the truth. jon said he wanted to syudy them to learn mor about the Whites and possibly the Others. He knew that wasn't true as the power of The Others stops at the Wall. He needed fresh, dead bodies to study, but the studying was learning how to Warg. he had ordered the cells holding the bodies dug out just before the stabbings. the last line of the chapter is

"He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …"

The whole series has foreshadowed the possbility of Jon surviving the attack. Let me put it more simply. I think it would be incredibly poor writing, and inconsistent with the story told so far, if Jon is really Wicked Witch of the West dead.

 

[Ursa major]

Re: Jon Snow

You make a great point about the letter. The letter and Jon's reaction to it were so over the top that one would think that it was staged and acted for the benefit of the audience (the rest of the NW)

Very true.

GRRM's (probable) legerdemain means that we've mostly been concentrating on the letter (Is it genuine? Who sent it? What does it mean?) and the attack (Is Jon dead? How might he have survived? Can he be revived?), to the extent that we've been missing Jon's very abrupt change of heart regarding interfering in the affairs south of the Wall.

But now we have noticed it, how might this change our views of the letter and of the incidents that led from it?

 

[Brian G Turner]

Re: Jon Snow

Ha! Is this another conspiracy theory brewing!

I felt that Jon had long ago made peace with his vows to the Night Watch. He almost left when Eddard was killed, but was persuaded otherwise. And there was that little speech from Maester Aemon about how he almost broke his vows, that I feel had a profound effect on Jon. I believe that Jon has long since accepted that the Starks represent his past and his future is with the Night Watch.

So, when he suddenly decides to up and off to save Arya, it seemed to fly in the face of his previous POV. Now I know that Jon and Arya were very close and probably cared more for each other than for any other sibling, but still it didn't feel right to me. Why is Jon suddenly reversing a decision made a long time ago and changing a whole mindset that he went through a fair bit of grief to acquire. Surely there has to be more than just saving Arya? After Eddard was killed, Arya was generally believed to be held prisoner with Sansa, yet he didn't rush off to Kings Landing to save her then. So why now? Just because she's going to be forced to marry a guy he knows she wouldn't care for? Nah. There's got to be more to this.

I welcome any and all crackpot theories!

It's not that uncommon, really, for an author to force a character into a position against their normal expected motivations, in order to move the plot along.

That's simply how I read that piece - Jon is acting somewhat out of character, but we know GRRM needs to move plot forward.

It's more testament to GRRM's writing skills, I think, that his characters normally define plot, rather than the other way around.

Of course, there's always the chance there is another explanation, but it wouldn't be surprising if it isn't just author intervention IMO.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

There is a very large difference between Catelyn being dead in the water for days and bringing someone back seconds after they die. Her body, in addition to being severely damaged by what cause her deatt (slashed throat), was also damaged by the natural process of decay. In the case of Beric, I never felt he acted like a "zombie", and one certainly wouldn't have thought that about him when he accpeted the responsibility to hunt down Gregor. Perhaps a little bit of the life force, the soul, DOES die with each resurrection, or more accurately, a piece stays dead and can't be brought back. The end result is a limited number of resurrections.

Which brings me to Jon. I've pointed to the Varamyr prologue as being extremely important, and a s close to a "users manual for warg" that exists in the canon. Jon could warg out of his body and as long as he didn't go into another living human being he could return as long as he had a living body to return to. The bodies being kept "on ice" were there for a reason and I believe that reason was told to us bu Jon, except he manipulated the truth. jon said he wanted to syudy them to learn mor about the Whites and possibly the Others. He knew that wasn't true as the power of The Others stops at the Wall. He needed fresh, dead bodies to study, but the studying was learning how to Warg. he had ordered the cells holding the bodies dug out just before the stabbings. the last line of the chapter is

"He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …"

The whole series has foreshadowed the possbility of Jon surviving the attack. Let me put it more simply. I think it would be incredibly poor writing, and inconsistent with the story told so far, if Jon is really Wicked Witch of the West dead.

Beric lost everything but one purpose that drove him further and was happy to embrace death, Cathelyn is different already, be it trauma from the Red Wedding or resurrection it doesn't matter. And I was not talking about body, because my opinion is when somebody dies he's dead, two minutes or two weeks, only difference is in state of the body. But if you choose to believe that it also influences "soul" in the sense that if there is less time between death and reanimation when "soul" returns to the body, it is in better shape - fine, but I don't.

Yes, Jon. Jon who was pictured as too honest for his own good trough the books. Jon who was forced against his will and beliefs to break his wows, kill the girl he likes, and deserts family he loves in their time of need. Jon who becomes Lord Commander of the Guard against his will, and thanks to the manipulation of Sam. That Jon suddenly plans his moves in a fashion of a chess master, predicting his opponents moves in advance, preparing exit against situation yet to occur. Again i'm not arguing validity of your theory, there is good chance it is right to the spot. But that simply is no longer my Jon.

It is foreshadowed, it actually stabs the eyes of reader, and it annoys me to the point that I wish Jon will stay dead only because its so obvious he won't. And we have different views on the poor writing, moment that pulled me to the ASoIaF is the scene where Ned loses his head, THAT was something unique in my experience as reader of fantasy. In that moment GRRM grabbed my attention, and deserved my admiration. It takes GUTS to kill of major POV in the book, and that is something rarely seen not only in fantasy, but in modern writing in general. So to me good writing isn't done by following cliche but doing bold unexpected moves, as Jon's death certainly would be.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

It's not that uncommon, really, for an author to force a character into a position against their normal expected motivations, in order to move the plot along.

That's simply how I read that piece - Jon is acting somewhat out of character, but we know GRRM needs to move plot forward.

It's more testament to GRRM's writing skills, I think, that his characters normally define plot, rather than the other way around.

Of course, there's always the chance there is another explanation, but it wouldn't be surprising if it isn't just author intervention IMO.

Very true, it's just that I wanted to believe that GRRM will stay immune to that stuff. My bad.

 

[Tywin]

Re: Jon Snow

It's not that uncommon, really, for an author to force a character into a position against their normal expected motivations, in order to move the plot along.

That's simply how I read that piece - Jon is acting somewhat out of character, but we know GRRM needs to move plot forward.

It's more testament to GRRM's writing skills, I think, that his characters normally define plot, rather than the other way around.

Of course, there's always the chance there is another explanation, but it wouldn't be surprising if it isn't just author intervention IMO.

Non-crackpot theories aside, I think that another element of Jon's decision to go south is that as the reader, we naturally want him to do it. We want the good guy to finally raise his banners and kick evil in the head.

This was why we were craving more of Robb Stark's exploits, and why when the wolves howled in the hills and he ambushed Jaime Lannister's army it was such an emotional event. It's what we expect out of a story. The longer we wait for it, and the more the bad guys seem to win, the sweeter it will be when good finally gets its act together.

Now, all that gets turned on its head by one fat author with a penchant for weird hats and a fear of shaving. His work is different because he knows that we expect good to win, and he leads us down the path where we finally think that the good guys will prevail. That's been his favorite time to abruptly kill the good guys. It's shocking, it's abrupt, and it's hardly foreshadowed if at all. This is the fat man's message: life does not follow the classic plot that you want and expect.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

Couldn't agree more with Tywin.

I give Needles theory two thumbs up, and admit that as one of those that love Jon's character, would like to see him back and stronger than ever.

It's just that GRRM's entire writing is based on presumption that s..t happens, and, although I'm not happy with the choice, Jon's death is acceptable as event logical to happen after all his actions.

On the side note - did anyone considered possibility that Dany's fire resistance is not connected to Targ blood, but intervention from the outside force (like if theory that she iz Azor Ahai is true, then perhaps R'hllor protects his champion agains fire)?

 

[Ursa major]

Re: Jon Snow

But if you choose to believe that it also influences "soul" in the sense that if there is less time between death and reanimation when "soul" returns to the body, it is in better shape - fine, but I don't.

Whatever one calls the essence involved - the soul, the personality, etc. - we have seen its presence in action and we have seen that it does deteriorate under certain circumstances (circumstances that are rather appropriate to Jon's situation). Haven't we been told that a warg's essence is affected by being in other bodies? Haven't we been told that this effect increases with time?

Now you might argue that this is because the host's own personality - or in the case of lower creatures, its basic drives - influence that essence. But in that case, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that a fast deteriorating body - as in Cat's case - might also affect this essence?

In Jon's case, common sense** might have driven him to this conclusion. He knows he's in an increasingly dangerous position (because his behaviour towards the Wildings is not appreciated by many in the NW). He needs an escape route, one you'd naturally wanted to keep in the best condition. Where better than in an ice cell?



** - Or information from Mel.