Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

Re: Jon Snow

No, Viserys is such a failure both as a person and in everything he does that as a character (not in real life) he becomes endearing. Because he's so pathetic you just can't help but smile. Like a two-headed cat that is so ugly that after a while you'd think it's cute.

Well, my wife always says that you can argue with someone's feelings, because that's their truth, so let me just say that I'd use adjectives such as arrogant, cruel, sadistic, intelligent, momomanical, ambitous, ruthless and egocentric to describe Viserys. I personally find him to be about as endearing as Jeffrey Dahmer, but without the cooking skills. (using the dictionary definition of "endearing" )
 
Re: Jon Snow

To go back a bit in this discussion:

Sorry if this has been said before and for the slight derailment (seeing as I don’t think there’s a connection here to Jon’s story or Winterfell), but am I the only one who thinks this talk of a 'stone dragon' is being taken a little too literally? Might it be referring to, say, the rise of a new - or old - seat of power like, er, Dragonstone?

Or am I missing/forgetting some more specific clues on this point?

that is actually a good idea. Can anyone remember the vision regarding the stone dragon? Also do you think it might refer to:

-Stannis Baratheon (who has Targ blood in him and held Dragonstone at that point in time.
-Shireen Baratheon (who is suffering from greyscale --> wich turns the skin to stone).
-Edric Storm (son of Robert Baratheon) who is setting sail to the sunset islands and may possible meet Dany.
- Aegon targaryen (if you follow the lineage the real heir to westeros before the rebellion, the heir usually taking Dragonstone as his seat + he and his army are currently awfully close to dragonstone)
-Jon Snow (wanted to put his name in here)
 
Re: Jon Snow

Well, my wife always says that you can argue with someone's feelings, because that's their truth, so let me just say that I'd use adjectives such as arrogant, cruel, sadistic, intelligent, momomanical, ambitous, ruthless and egocentric to describe Viserys. I personally find him to be about as endearing as Jeffrey Dahmer, but without the cooking skills. (using the dictionary definition of "endearing" )

Just one question: Who the *bleep* is Jeffrey Dahmer?
 
Re: Jon Snow

Just one question: Who the *bleep* is Jeffrey Dahmer?
He is one of America's most infamous serial killers. He used to eat some of the body parts. From the wikipedia article


Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer (May 21, 1960 – November 28, 1994) was an American serial killer and sex offender. Dahmer murdered 17 men and boys between 1978 and 1991, with the majority of the murders occurring between 1987 and 1991. His murders involved rape, dismemberment, necrophilia and cannibalism. On November 28, 1994, he was beaten to death by an inmate at the Columbia Correctional Institution, where he had been incarcerated.
 
Re: Jon Snow

He is one of America's most infamous serial killers. He used to eat some of the body parts. From the wikipedia article


Jeffrey Lionel Dahmer (May 21, 1960 – November 28, 1994) was an American serial killer and sex offender. Dahmer murdered 17 men and boys between 1978 and 1991, with the majority of the murders occurring between 1987 and 1991. His murders involved rape, dismemberment, necrophilia and cannibalism. On November 28, 1994, he was beaten to death by an inmate at the Columbia Correctional Institution, where he had been incarcerated.

Dahmer is not dead, he warged into a white wolf and is relaxing at the Milwaukee Zoo
 
Re: Jon Snow

To go back a bit in this discussion:

Sorry if this has been said before and for the slight derailment (seeing as I don’t think there’s a connection here to Jon’s story or Winterfell), but am I the only one who thinks this talk of a 'stone dragon' is being taken a little too literally? Might it be referring to, say, the rise of a new - or old - seat of power like, er, Dragonstone?

Or am I missing/forgetting some more specific clues on this point?
I don't know how or by who but I think at some point the stone dragons at Dragonstone will be re? animated. I don't feel Dany's young dragons (miracles that the are) will be enough. I know Mel talks of awakening the dragon, it could be dragons!
 
Re: Jon Snow

dahmer is not dead, he warged into a white wolf and is relaxing at the milwaukee zoo

I like the way that you brought this back around to Jon Snow.

Back to the subject of whether or not Daenerys is fireproof (and whether this would be a needed characteristic for Jon to eventually ride one of those dragons), in real life you don't have your hair burn down to the scalp without seriously disfiguring the skin underneath.

Not that George RR Martin is constrained by the laws of physics and biology (this is fantasy fiction, and whatever he puts down on paper trumps science), but I'd also like to point out that in the HBO series for AGOT there are several little added bits that point towards Dany not being affected by extreme heat. The two scenes I remember are where she hops in the bath tub that her servants are trying to tell her is dangerously hot, and when she pics the dragon egg out of the hot coals and one of her servants tries to take it from her and gets the pattern of the egg burned into her palms.
 
Re: Jon Snow

Back to the subject of whether or not Daenerys is fireproof (and whether this would be a needed characteristic for Jon to eventually ride one of those dragons), in real life you don't have your hair burn down to the scalp without seriously disfiguring the skin underneath.
I thought just the same. Having all hair burned and alive means that she's most likely almost fireproof.

But back to Jon. For me its quite confusing that he was murdered at that moment, after wildlings are all over the wall. Basically he is only link between wildlings, the watch and queen men so I think that killing him will unleash swift mayhem as Tormund and wildlings are likely to take his side and strike the watch and queens man the moment Jon got stabbed. They outnumber watch, and in bloody, unorganized close combat should do better then watchers. Moment Jon got stabbed situation was very dangerous and even with Jon alive there was danger of violence breakthrought. It may be there waren't more dagger strikes after this 4 because carnage could begin just a moment later. If so watch can be utterly destroyed, or badly damaged (if they would fight their own civil war amongs their own ranks). Jon would be responsible of destruction of brotherhood that traced back thousands years, full of remorses and regrets, so that mayhem can suit sadistic approach that GRRM likes. Also he can become some kind of leader to the wildlings. Maybe new king-over-the-wall-at-this-side-of-wall. That would bring another pack of doubts to him.
 
Re: Jon Snow

Personally, I think the statement " He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold " means more then it leads on.. Clearly indicating that he warged out of his body at the last second...The question is to where, Ghost would be the most likely candidate but..One would assume that ghost wouldn't necessarily be "Feeling the cold" as it were.. Perhaps into one of the captives in the frozen cells? Who knows.. maybe i'm being too literal..
 
Re: Jon Snow

I think you're onto something and there might be more to the "Only the cold" comment. "The Cold" comes before or with the others. This could be the moment the others attack over the wall or something, or... well anything.
 
Re: Jon Snow

Crackpot theory-Jon is not dead because Jon is not Jon update:
Will do my best here to put it all together.


Magic we know can and has been done: reanimation of the dead, glamour of one person to look like another, a warg ability to take over another.


Okay, Mel knows Jon is in great danger, would she just let him die and hope to bring him back, short answer no. As far as Jon knows, Arya is all that is left of his family (and his favorite besides), he cannot just let Ramsey have her. Mel tells Jon “Look to the sky for answers, when you get them come to me.” I believe he did just that after reading Ramsey’s letter. It is stated that he had a 2 hour meeting between reading and going to his “death” it did not take that long for Jon and Tourmand to get their plot together. Ghost and the raven know something is up (granted this is before Jon gets the letter) but if they could sense Jon was in danger they could sense what was about to happen, Ghost goes so far as to bite at Jon, and had he been allowed to go with Jon it would not have worked. So he remains locked up.

I had already figured Mel had glamoured someone to look like Jon, my sticking point was who? They would have to be willing, and would Jon allow someone he trusted, that was willing to do such a thing do it, probably not.

Now for the connecting pieces, I give credit here where credit is due: To Imp, for reminding us of those bodies locked in their cells that must be there for a reason, and to my son for saying “Doesn’t Rhallor give the power to raise the dead, what about those bodies?”

If Cat can be brought back after rotting in the water for days, a semi frozen body should be easy.

So this is what happened, Mel breathes life (a semblance of one anyway) into a convienent body, glamours it look like Jon, Jon goes into it long enough to make that stupid speech (after being convinced by Mel and Borug(the guy with the boar) that he can do this), body gets killed, Jon picks up Ghost, who is really freakin out cause Jon in a dead body really upsets him. Now I believe the wildlings may well go on to Winterfell, will Jon go with them or it was that only part of the plan to draw out the danger, I don’t know.

All of this allows Jon to rid himself of those standing in the way of what must be done, it also lets him keep his friends. I say this because he is of the North, in the North, followed by the North. If he is brought back by Mel, he becomes Un-Jon, someone the northerners would view as an other, even if he can go into Ghost while his body dies, they would still hold this view. To warg is acceptable even valued, as long it does not involve taking another person. A dead body, with the potential to be an other, would surely not count.



I rest my case and claim bragging rights when this all proves true!:D If it doesn’t we will just forget that I may have gone crazy!;)
Just a recap for those who have not yet read the truth! :D
Can't figure out how to link it, showing my age I guess!
 
Re: Jon Snow

I gotta say if I am Jon and I have to warg out in that situation I would slip into the giant if at all possible. He has never done this so maybe it is outside his capability but deadly danger can impart extra strength through desperation and that would certainly put him in a position to protect his body from further damage while slipping into Ghost who is locked up would, well, leave him locked up.
 
Re: Jon Snow

I gotta say if I am Jon and I have to warg out in that situation I would slip into the giant if at all possible. He has never done this so maybe it is outside his capability but deadly danger can impart extra strength through desperation and that would certainly put him in a position to protect his body from further damage while slipping into Ghost who is locked up would, well, leave him locked up.
Using the prologue of ADWD as a "users manual", we know that Thistle was willing to bite off her own tongue and gouge her eyes out when Varamyr was terying to possess her. Hodor has never been happy or comfortable with Bran's occupations. One could only imagine how violently Wun Wun might fight Jon if he attempted to warg into him. I think the bodies that Jon was keeping on ice were there for this exact reason. As i've said before, i have never believed Jon's lame story, unless studying them meant practicing warging in and out of them.
 
Re: Jon Snow

Using the prologue of ADWD as a "users manual", we know that Thistle was willing to bite off her own tongue and gouge her eyes out when Varamyr was terying to possess her. Hodor has never been happy or comfortable with Bran's occupations. One could only imagine how violently Wun Wun might fight Jon if he attempted to warg into him. I think the bodies that Jon was keeping on ice were there for this exact reason. As i've said before, i have never believed Jon's lame story, unless studying them meant practicing warging in and out of them.

Difficult, no doubt, but I just do not see the advantage of jumping into a wolf that is locked up or a dead body that is locked up and frozen. Maybe I am missing something but it is hard to see how either option gives Jon much hope.
 
Re: Jon Snow

Said body is neither frozen nor locked up! http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/1528838-post223.html Here is the true tale!

Thanks Ursa!

Well I like this "hypothesis" and will cheer if you are correct. I simply do not recall any clues that would point in this direction but I freely admit my reading retention is not what it once was. The idea of Jon being dead pisses me off but GRRM has done this so often in this series I guess I am just starting to expect it:rolleyes:. Of more importance to me than all the other conjecture is when will the next book be out? Conjecture or informed answer anyone?
 
Re: Jon Snow

The idea of Jon being dead pisses me off but GRRM has done this so often in this series I guess I am just starting to expect it:rolleyes:.
I think that this way or another Jon must survive. He was one of two main characters in Dance, and loosing him will make all this story of transformation at The Watch meaningless. Next thing is we still have mistery of his legacy - who he really is. There is very interesting concept of Jon Snow being bestard boy of Reagar Targaryen and Lyanna, and it fits story just too well to turn false or have lesser impact. It looks like a plot made with foundations of saga - there is much reference that tease it even in beginning chapters of Game Of Thrones. So I think there is lot of room for speculation what happened next, and maybe how he have survived, but I think that chances of Jon being really dead are very low.
 

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