Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Tywin]

Re: Jon Snow

On the side note - did anyone considered possibility that Dany's fire resistance is not connected to Targ blood, but intervention from the outside force (like if theory that she iz Azor Ahai is true, then perhaps R'hllor protects his champion agains fire)?

I hadn't thought about that. Mel has shown herself to be non-flammable hasn't she? Or did she just talk about it?

 

[Mesanna]

Re: Jon Snow

It's not that uncommon, really, for an author to force a character into a position against their normal expected motivations, in order to move the plot along.

That's simply how I read that piece - Jon is acting somewhat out of character, but we know GRRM needs to move plot forward.

It's more testament to GRRM's writing skills, I think, that his characters normally define plot, rather than the other way around.

Of course, there's always the chance there is another explanation, but it wouldn't be surprising if it isn't just author intervention IMO.

I understand what you're saying, but I hope you're wrong.

I've read many books too where characters seem to have a giant brain fart for no obvious reason, but then of course it all turns out right in the end. But I've always believed GRRM was a better writer than that. If Dany, for example, suddenly did something that seemed to fly in the face of everything she'd done already, like maybe actively promoting slavery, I might put it down to GRRM writing his way out of the Meereenese knot. But - as far as we're aware- his plotting problems didn't involve The Wall, so I assume GRRM had a fair idea what was going to happen to Jon from the beginning, and that's why I find the idea of his U-turn difficult to believe.

Jon may be Lord Commander, but he's still bound by his vow to the Night Watch. How many times has it mentioned in the text that the Night Watch take no part in events in the realm? And that deserting the Night Watch is a death sentence. Why did Jon think that his brothers would calmly accept their leader's violation of his vows? For any other officer, this would call for his execution. Why does Jon think he can get away with it?

I don't have any answers, but it just feels wrong to me.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Beric lost everything but one purpose that drove him further and was happy to embrace death, Cathelyn is different already, be it trauma from the Red Wedding or resurrection it doesn't matter. And I was not talking about body, because my opinion is when somebody dies he's dead, two minutes or two weeks, only difference is in state of the body. But if you choose to believe that it also influences "soul" in the sense that if there is less time between death and reanimation when "soul" returns to the body, it is in better shape - fine, but I don't.

Yes, Jon. Jon who was pictured as too honest for his own good trough the books. Jon who was forced against his will and beliefs to break his wows, kill the girl he likes, and deserts family he loves in their time of need. Jon who becomes Lord Commander of the Guard against his will, and thanks to the manipulation of Sam. That Jon suddenly plans his moves in a fashion of a chess master, predicting his opponents moves in advance, preparing exit against situation yet to occur. Again i'm not arguing validity of your theory, there is good chance it is right to the spot. But that simply is no longer my Jon.

It is foreshadowed, it actually stabs the eyes of reader, and it annoys me to the point that I wish Jon will stay dead only because its so obvious he won't. And we have different views on the poor writing, moment that pulled me to the ASoIaF is the scene where Ned loses his head, THAT was something unique in my experience as reader of fantasy. In that moment GRRM grabbed my attention, and deserved my admiration. It takes GUTS to kill of major POV in the book, and that is something rarely seen not only in fantasy, but in modern writing in general. So to me good writing isn't done by following cliche but doing bold unexpected moves, as Jon's death certainly would be.

But there's the true smoke and mirrors. GRRM never killed off a major character, he only killed off characters that he led us to believe were major characters.

Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Joffrey, Drogo, Tywin, Kevan, Shae, Viserys, Robert, Renly, Quentyn, Oberyn, Balon, etc. were important to varying degrees, and the story survived without all of them. IMO, the story can survive without Jon.

If that's true, we can use GRRM's own words as a clue to whether or not Jon is actually dead. From a September interiew-

Martin talks about how impressed he was that The Avengers introduced Wonder Man, brought him into the group and killed him off, all in the same issue. And then comes this great bit, in which Martin confesses he thinks Wonder Man and Gandalf should both have stayed dead:

I do think that if you're bringing a character back, that a character has gone through death, that's a transformative experience. Even back in those days of Wonder Man and all that, I loved the fact that he died, and although I liked the character in later years, I wasn't so thrilled when he came back because that sort of undid the power of it. Much as I admire Tolkien, I once again always felt like Gandalf should have stayed dead. That was such an incredible sequence in Fellowship of the Ring when he faces the Balrog on the Khazad-dûm and he falls into the gulf, and his last words are, "Fly, you fools."
What power that had, how that grabbed me. And then he comes back as Gandalf the White, and if anything he's sort of improved. I never liked Gandalf the White as much as Gandalf the Grey, and I never liked him coming back. I think it would have been an even stronger story if Tolkien had left him dead.
My characters who come back from death are worse for wear. In some ways, they're not even the same characters anymore. The body may be moving, but some aspect of the spirit is changed or transformed, and they've lost something. One of the characters who has come back repeatedly from death is Beric Dondarrion, The Lightning Lord. Each time he's revived he loses a little more of himself. He was sent on a mission before his first death. He was sent on a mission to do something, and it's like, that's what he's clinging to. He's forgetting other things, he's forgetting who he is, or where he lived. He's forgotten the woman who he was once supposed to marry. Bits of his humanity are lost every time he comes back from death; he remembers that mission. His flesh is falling away from him, but this one thing, this purpose that he had is part of what's animating him and bringing him back to death. I think you see echoes of that with some of the other characters who have come back from death.
​

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

Re: Jon Snow

But there's the true smoke and mirrors. GRRM never killed off a major character, he only killed off characters that he led us to believe were major characters.

Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Joffrey, Drogo, Tywin, Kevan, Shae, Viserys, Robert, Renly, Quentyn, Oberyn, Balon, etc. were important to varying degrees, and the story survived without all of them. IMO, the story can survive without Jon.

I never thought of it like that, I thought Ned was the major character even after death, but what you said makes more sense, and makes me guess that the Majorest character is Tyrion who seems to find his way in a little bit of almost everyones storyline and as is known to be GRRMs favorite character

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

Whatever one calls the essence involved - the soul, the personality, etc. - we have seen its presence in action and we have seen that it does deteriorate under certain circumstances (circumstances that are rather appropriate to Jon's situation). Haven't we been told that a warg's essence is affected by being in other bodies? Haven't we been told that this effect increases with time?

Now you might argue that this is because the host's own personality - or in the case of lower creatures, its basic drives - influence that essence. But in that case, wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that a fast deteriorating body - as in Cat's case - might also affect this essence?

In Jon's case, common sense** might have driven him to this conclusion. He knows he's in an increasingly dangerous position (because his behaviour towards the Wildings is not appreciated by many in the NW). He needs an escape route, one you'd naturally wanted to keep in the best condition. Where better than in an ice cell?



** - Or information from Mel.

Difference between warging and reviving is that in the first case, you are forcibly putting your essence in the body that already have one, and that one fights with everything it has to force you out or absorb your essence, while your own body is either on "standby" or, in worst case scenario - dead. Reviving works in that way that your body is killed, and your essence released to unknown place. Priest that returns the essence pules it back from the unknown (name it as you like) and returns it to the body it inhabited. In the process losing parts of the essence to the "unknown". So my logic is that body condition is irrelevant, since parts of the essence are always lost, whatever the time between reviving or body condition (see also post by The Imp lower for GRRM's thoughts on the matter).

Jon is not driven by common sense alone (beside not being his strong point), he has strong feeling of pride, which would stop him from deceiving his fellow Watchmen, even if he understands in how dangerous situation he is ( and I think he doesn't ).

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

I hadn't thought about that. Mel has shown herself to be non-flammable hasn't she? Or did she just talk about it?

Not non-flammable just resistant, and this idea came to me with Dagon, and his resistance do drowning granted by Drowned god. It seemed much more logical since nobody who has or might have Targ blood doesn't show this trait.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

But there's the true smoke and mirrors. GRRM never killed off a major character, he only killed off characters that he led us to believe were major characters.

Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Joffrey, Drogo, Tywin, Kevan, Shae, Viserys, Robert, Renly, Quentyn, Oberyn, Balon, etc. were important to varying degrees, and the story survived without all of them. IMO, the story can survive without Jon.

If that's true, we can use GRRM's own words as a clue to whether or not Jon is actually dead. From a September interiew-

Why you little - Jon should have pushed you off that Wall when you were taking a piss. That is exact article I read and based my theory on, hat down to The Imp.

And truth is in the eye of the watcher (in this case reader). So Ned IS major character to me, and GRRM writing is never in absolute terms - nobody is just good or bad, smart or stupid - everyone has an angle, and not one character you can call MAIN, they are just important to the story to some degree (even Dany included).

 

[grip junky]

Re: Jon Snow

But there's the true smoke and mirrors. GRRM never killed off a major character, he only killed off characters that he led us to believe were major characters.

Ned, Robb, Catelyn, Joffrey, Drogo, Tywin, Kevan, Shae, Viserys, Robert, Renly, Quentyn, Oberyn, Balon, etc.

Most of the characters you named were killed off early on. It is now to late and to early kill someone like Jon off. Their would not have been much of a story with out Neds and Roberts death. Outside of Robb, as for the others, were they really main characters or just hanger-ons.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Why you little - Jon should have pushed you off that Wall when you were taking a piss. That is exact article I read and based my theory on, hat down to The Imp.

And truth is in the eye of the watcher (in this case reader). So Ned IS major character to me, and GRRM writing is never in absolute terms - nobody is just good or bad, smart or stupid - everyone has an angle, and not one character you can call MAIN, they are just important to the story to some degree (even Dany included).

Strong Belwas could have gotten eaten by Drogon and the story would have been fine

Quentyn got raosted and the story is fine

Sansa could push Littlefinger out of the Moon Door and the story would be fine

With a little explaining and string pulling, Jaime, Cersei, Ramsay and Roose, All of Dorne, most of the Ironmen, Brienne, etc. etc. could all be killed of without leaving gaping holes in the plot. IMO, At the heart of the foundation of the story are Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion and Bran. I don't see how any of what GRRM has written so far makes sense if jon is actually dead, therefore, I choose to beleive that he isn't

or maybe GRRM will shock the hell out of everyone and have Jon join the Others, which someone actually suggested a while back(they were talking about Jon acting as a sort of spy)

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

Strong Belwas could have gotten eaten by Drogon and the story would have been fine

Quentyn got raosted and the story is fine

Sansa could push Littlefinger out of the Moon Door and the story would be fine

With a little explaining and string pulling, Jaime, Cersei, Ramsay and Roose, All of Dorne, most of the Ironmen, Brienne, etc. etc. could all be killed of without leaving gaping holes in the plot. IMO, At the heart of the foundation of the story are Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion and Bran. I don't see how any of what GRRM has written so far makes sense if jon is actually dead, therefore, I choose to beleive that he isn't

or maybe GRRM will shock the hell out of everyone and have Jon join the Others, which someone actually suggested a while back(they were talking about Jon acting as a sort of spy)

Dany falls from Drogons back, dies, and Victarion uses horn to tame her dragons, someone else takes the role of forthcoming savior.

Everything is possible, and it doesn't matter if readers think that is too early or too late to kill of someone, only one opinion matters, and he doesn't share power.

HEY, that IS great idea. The Others for now are complete mystery, maybe GRRM will use Jon to provide some insight into their motives!

 

[Ursa major]

Re: Jon Snow

Difference between warging and reviving is that in the first case, you are forcibly putting your essence in the body that already have one, and that one fights with everything it has to force you out or absorb your essence, while your own body is either on "standby" or, in worst case scenario - dead. Reviving works in that way that your body is killed, and your essence released to unknown place. Priest that returns the essence pules it back from the unknown (name it as you like) and returns it to the body it inhabited. In the process losing parts of the essence to the "unknown". So my logic is that body condition is irrelevant, since parts of the essence are always lost, whatever the time between reviving or body condition (see also post by The Imp lower for GRRM's thoughts on the matter).

You're making an assumption that the essence goes for some sort of mini-break until the Red Priest turns up. There's no evidence for that at all.

It seems unlikely, given GRRM's own views, that Westeros has an associated Paradise, or a Hell, let alone a Limbo. And don't you think that if one of Dondarrion's thoguht his leader had been to Paradise or limbo, they'd have asked about it and then spread the answer, whatever it was, amongst their comrades? (Arya might even have heard about it.)

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

You're making an assumption that the essence goes for some sort of mini-break until the Red Priest turns up. There's no evidence for that at all.

It seems unlikely, given GRRM's own views, that Westeros has an associated Paradise, or a Hell, let alone a Limbo. And don't you think that if one of Dondarrion's thoguht his leader had been to Paradise or limbo, they'd have asked about it and then spread the answer, whatever it was, amongst their comrades? (Arya might even have heard about it.)

Were both making assumption that essence exists, and, since it obviously is not destroyed when person dies, it must be somewhere, and I described that place as UNKNOWN, never mentioned Paradise, Hell or Limbo. Although, since you mentioned it, GRRM really slacked on that front, after all he settled s..t load of gods in his world, its only logical that some of the religions believe in the afterlife, so there must be at lest some sort of Great Green Fields in Westeros.

And yes, I believe that Red Priest pules it back from wherever it has gone, not on the mini break though, since it doesn't return on its free will, or else there wold be no dead in Westeros or Essos.

 

[Ursa major]

Re: Jon Snow

We know that essence exists, because we know it is not, on that world, an attribute (or set of attributes) of the flesh, but must have a separate existence. How else can it be transferred to (or, perhaps, shared with) another body as it is when warging?

As for where it is at the point of death, we don't know. The simplest explanation - simplest in the sense that is does not entail the creation of an unknown place - is that it is still in the body (at least for non-wargs) and deteriorates while there. (This would also explain why unCat is but a shadow of the living Cat, embodying, as it were, the baser instincts of her personality.)

By the way, my references to Paradise, etc., were mentioned in the context of GRRM's beliefs and non-beliefs, not your post.


Regarding the religions of that world: TSW has just posted on the Oh no, not a religious discussion thread (http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/1545313-post41.html), putting across the opinion that the truth of any of that world's religions has not been proved one way or another: their adherents' success in the use of magic may have nothing to do with their stated beliefs.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

Already posted there.

I can accept your presumption about essence. Just one thing, that would mean that anyone with understanding of, or power in, magic can resurrect the dead, bu rekindling the essence so that person lives again ( and I mean separately from life force ), but so far we only see priests and the Others do so.

But this has gone in direction away from Mr. Snow, so let say I agree with you and go back to topic.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

OK, hold to your pants, how about this for a crackpot theory:

Jon is dead, and he is going to be resurrected, only by someone nobody expects. When in ice cells with the dead body's, he didn't try to practice warginig into them but to communicate with the Others, trying to better understand them. And then the Great Other spoke to him:" You are all misguided, I'm trying to save the world from my archenemy R'hllor, who's plan is to engulf entire world with devouring flames. Only I can stop him, and I need YOU to be my champion. It is your destiny SNOW!". With Thormund he makes pact for wildlings to transport his body to the other side of the wall after he is dead, raven and his wolf sense that he is going to do something like that and that is why they are infuriated. Then he steps up and provoke his fellow Watchmen to kill him, by delivering his little speech. And in The Winds of Winter, Jon remains POV, only for different side than up until now.

Thanks The Imp for giving me idea that Jon may be switching sides, and Ursa Major for idea that Great Other may actually be the good guy.

 

[Timba]

Re: Jon Snow

OK, hold to your pants, how about this for a crackpot theory:

Jon is dead, and he is going to be resurrected, only by someone nobody expects. When in ice cells with the dead body's, he didn't try to practice warginig into them but to communicate with the Others, trying to better understand them. And then the Great Other spoke to him:" You are all misguided, I'm trying to save the world from my archenemy R'hllor, who's plan is to engulf entire world with devouring flames. Only I can stop him, and I need YOU to be my champion. It is your destiny SNOW!". With Thormund he makes pact for wildlings to transport his body to the other side of the wall after he is dead, raven and his wolf sense that he is going to do something like that and that is why they are infuriated. Then he steps up and provoke his fellow Watchmen to kill him, by delivering his little speech. And in The Winds of Winter, Jon remains POV, only for different side than up until now.

Thanks The Imp for giving me idea that Jon may be switching sides, and Ursa Major for idea that Great Other may actually be the good guy.

At the very least you deserve an A+ for creative crackpottery. I am going to have to sleep on this one.

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

Reviving works in that way that your body is killed, and your essence released to unknown place. Priest that returns the essence pules it back from the unknown (name it as you like) and returns it to the body it inhabited. In the process losing parts of the essence to the "unknown". So my logic is that body condition is irrelevant, since parts of the essence are always lost, whatever the time between reviving or body condition (see also post by The Imp lower for GRRM's thoughts on the matter).

I understand what you are saying about a person's essence (soul I would say) and the effect on it from resurrection and agree with you on that part, yet the body's condition is far from irrelevant. If you took your mind and soul and put it into a body that had it's head cut most of the way off and then rotted in the river for a week or so I have to say it would effect your thought processes!!

 

[3EyedCrowsEye]

Re: Jon Snow

Maybe Jon Snow will not succumb to his wounds and be healed by Mel

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

I understand what you are saying about a person's essence (soul I would say) and the effect on it from resurrection and agree with you on that part, yet the body's condition is far from irrelevant. If you took your mind and soul and put it into a body that had it's head cut most of the way off and then rotted in the river for a week or so I have to say it would effect your thought processes!!

It is all based on GRRM's world and his rules. I'm saying that for me nice looking zombie is still zombie. I don't want Jon back from the dead still looking good and being almost as he was before. It's too much like "OK, if we can not have old Jon, give us something as close as possible, please Mr. Martin". Don't wanna think that way, if he must be dead FINE, if not then rock my world with something truly worth all the fuss (check my crackpot theory).

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

It is all based on GRRM's world and his rules. I'm saying that for me nice looking zombie is still zombie. I don't want Jon back from the dead still looking good and being almost as he was before. It's too much like "OK, if we can not have old Jon, give us something as close as possible, please Mr. Martin". Don't wanna think that way, if he must be dead FINE, if not then rock my world with something truly worth all the fuss (check my crackpot theory).

Absolutely!! Mine own crackpot theory is based on a zombie Jon at this point would just be cheating and unworthy of GRRM!