Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[garion77]

Re: Jon Snow

OK, hold to your pants, how about this for a crackpot theory:

Jon is dead, and he is going to be resurrected, only by someone nobody expects. When in ice cells with the dead body's, he didn't try to practice warginig into them but to communicate with the Others, trying to better understand them. And then the Great Other spoke to him:" You are all misguided, I'm trying to save the world from my archenemy R'hllor, who's plan is to engulf entire world with devouring flames. Only I can stop him, and I need YOU to be my champion. It is your destiny SNOW!". With Thormund he makes pact for wildlings to transport his body to the other side of the wall after he is dead, raven and his wolf sense that he is going to do something like that and that is why they are infuriated. Then he steps up and provoke his fellow Watchmen to kill him, by delivering his little speech. And in The Winds of Winter, Jon remains POV, only for different side than up until now.

Thanks The Imp for giving me idea that Jon may be switching sides, and Ursa Major for idea that Great Other may actually be the good guy.

The biggest problem with this is if the Great Other is good, that mean the Children are evil... The Children are the ones who helped defeat the Others the first time they came. And from what I can tell, the Children are the good guys....

And Rhallor might put some people to the flames... But the Others kills everything in their path...

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

The biggest problem with this is if the Great Other is good, that mean the Children are evil... The Children are the ones who helped defeat the Others the first time they came. And from what I can tell, the Children are the good guys....

And Rhallor might put some people to the flames... But the Others kills everything in their path...

Wouldn't trust GRRM's presentation of someone being "evil" or "good". What if Children manipulated humans against the Others, after all the Children and First Men fought war in which men won and drove the Children in the forests, don't you think they would hold some grudge for that?

We never had any POV from the Others. What if it's like "WHAT IS A MATTER WITH THESE HUMANS, whenever they see us, they either run, or try to stab us with dragonglass or burn us with fire!"

And R'hllor and his priests may be only using humans to their goals, giving everything to the fire once their opponents are defeated.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Wouldn't trust GRRM's presentation of someone being "evil" or "good". What if Children manipulated humans against the Others, after all the Children and First Men fought war in which men won and drove the Children in the forests, don't you think they would hold some grudge for that?

We never had any POV from the Others. What if it's like "WHAT IS A MATTER WITH THESE HUMANS, whenever they see us, they either run, or try to stab us with dragonglass or burn us with fire!"

And R'hllor and his priests may be only using humans to their goals, giving everything to the fire once their opponents are defeated.

Our introduction to The Others in aGoT depicted them as ruthlessly cutting Waymar Royce down, apparently for no reason, this after killing WildingsIt's entirely possible though thatwe're only seeing what "the magician" wants us to see, and their motives may be far more complex. I certainly think that nothing in aSoIaF is pure white or pure black, but rather, everything is a varying shade of grey.

It may turn out that the forces of Fire (Dany and the South) join with Ice (Bran and the North) to fight a common enemy that we haven't even met yet, or perhaps not to have a final fight at all.

 

[Tywin]

Re: Jon Snow

Jon is dead, and he is going to be resurrected, only by someone nobody expects. When in ice cells with the dead body's, he didn't try to practice warginig into them but to communicate with the Others, trying to better understand them. And then the Great Other spoke to him:" You are all misguided, I'm trying to save the world from my archenemy R'hllor, who's plan is to engulf entire world with devouring flames. Only I can stop him, and I need YOU to be my champion. It is your destiny SNOW!". With Thormund he makes pact for wildlings to transport his body to the other side of the wall after he is dead, raven and his wolf sense that he is going to do something like that and that is why they are infuriated. Then he steps up and provoke his fellow Watchmen to kill him, by delivering his little speech. And in The Winds of Winter, Jon remains POV, only for different side than up until now.

This is now my all-time favorite crackpot theory.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

Our introduction to The Others in aGoT depicted them as ruthlessly cutting Waymar Royce down, apparently for no reason, this after killing WildingsIt's entirely possible though thatwe're only seeing what "the magician" wants us to see, and their motives may be far more complex. I certainly think that nothing in aSoIaF is pure white or pure black, but rather, everything is a varying shade of grey.

It may turn out that the forces of Fire (Dany and the South) join with Ice (Bran and the North) to fight a common enemy that we haven't even met yet, or perhaps not to have a final fight at all.

Smoke and mirrors baby, smoke and mirrors...

 

[Slovian]

Re: Jon Snow

IMO, At the heart of the foundation of the story are Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion and Bran. I don't see how any of what GRRM has written so far makes sense if jon is actually dead, therefore, I choose to beleive that he isn't

Each character got its story to tell. And even GRRM don't want to just kill character meaninglessly. Jon story is just incomplete. Reading throught all Dance with all this story at the wall just to get Jon stabbed would be such a waste (of MY precious time), that I'm quite sure he's alive. Jon life is incomplete, he would be killed prematurely while he never reached his true potential, and never made a complete story. I'm also almost sure about L+R=J theory which should have lot of impact on final storyline, judgeing from it plotting in the first book.
How he will survive, and what assassination would have impact on Night Watch is another question. For me prologue was there not without a reason, and only reason I see is "quick warging handbook". I still think that without Jon wildlings will find themselves endangered. Guyz who stab him didn't like them too much. And because wildlings outnumber watch greatly in numbers conflict is natural. And this would end up with Night Watch being destroyed or at least badly damaged, all thanks to ex Lord Commander Jon Snow. So no real happy ending, and another burden for Jon to carry.

 

[Timba]

Re: Jon Snow

This is now my all-time favorite crackpot theory.

I had to sleep on it but I agree, this one tickles me. I am not setting aside Needle's approach though, either one works for me as I just do not want to believe Jon is dead.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

I had to sleep on it but I agree, this one tickles me. I am not setting aside Needle's approach though, either one works for me as I just do not want to believe Jon is dead.

Feel free to improve if there is something you think I missed.

 

[Mesanna]

Re: Jon Snow

How he will survive, and what assassination would have impact on Night Watch is another question. For me prologue was there not without a reason, and only reason I see is "quick warging handbook". I still think that without Jon wildlings will find themselves endangered. Guyz who stab him didn't like them too much. And because wildlings outnumber watch greatly in numbers conflict is natural. And this would end up with Night Watch being destroyed or at least badly damaged, all thanks to ex Lord Commander Jon Snow. So no real happy ending, and another burden for Jon to carry.

I think Slovian brings up another great point that hasn't been discussed much. What is going to happen at The Wall immediately after Jon's 'death'?

Tensions were running really high at the end of ADwD and reached flash point with Jon's stabbing. Between the Nights Watch, the Queens Men and the Wildlings, I agree that there will be conflict ahead and can foresee a huge fight kicking off the start of Winds of Winter, which could result in absolute carnage. So if/when Jon comes back (in whatever form), is there going to be much of a Night Watch left for him to command? And I really wonder if any surviving Night Watch brothers would continue to accept Jon as leader because, not only was he going to break his vows and involve himself in events in the realm, whatever manner of 'comeback' he uses (whether it's warging or Mel or whatever), will spook whatever Night Watch brothers are left. They're already on edge with dead bodies coming back to life and would probably consider Jon to be 'tarred with the same brush'.

Oh, and with the Wall so weakened with internal strife, wouldn't this be a great time for The Others/the Wight army to attack?

I think Jon's storyline is going to take a big pivot in the next book.

 

[Timba]

Re: Jon Snow

I think Slovian brings up another great point that hasn't been discussed much. What is going to happen at The Wall immediately after Jon's 'death'?

Tensions were running really high at the end of ADwD and reached flash point with Jon's stabbing. Between the Nights Watch, the Queens Men and the Wildlings, I agree that there will be conflict ahead and can foresee a huge fight kicking off the start of Winds of Winter, which could result in absolute carnage. So if/when Jon comes back (in whatever form), is there going to be much of a Night Watch left for him to command? And I really wonder if any surviving Night Watch brothers would continue to accept Jon as leader because, not only was he going to break his vows and involve himself in events in the realm, whatever manner of 'comeback' he uses (whether it's warging or Mel or whatever), will spook whatever Night Watch brothers are left. They're already on edge with dead bodies coming back to life and would probably consider Jon to be 'tarred with the same brush'.

Oh, and with the Wall so weakened with internal strife, wouldn't this be a great time for The Others/the Wight army to attack?

I think Jon's storyline is going to take a big pivot in the next book.

I think Slovian and you are definitely touching something we need to think about. Take the scene of Jon's stabbing, the giant is already on a bit of a rampage and I do not think he is going to be happy to see Jon stabbed. The wildings are going to see their protector gone and quite possibly follow the old adage that the best defense is a good offense. How will Mel and the Queen and the Queen's men factor in to this, if memory serves it was a Queen's man the giant was tearing apart. We are talking full boil status here.

 

[Mesanna]

Re: Jon Snow

I think it may end up as the Night Watch & the Queen's Men vs The Wildlings. And I believe the Wildlings would fight to the death, because they know that if they lose they will be put back on the other side of the Wall, which is pretty much a death sentence anyway. I think (though I might be mis-remembering) that the Wildlings outnumber the others?

Even if Jon is back on his feet quickly, I don't see how he could stop this fight happening. As Timba says, the giant has already started fighting, and I think it will only get worse from there. Maybe Mel will be able to pull off some magic trick that will scare everyone out of fighting, but I doubt it.

Maybe this will precipitate 'the end of the wall'. Doesn't it state that the Wall will stand so long as there are men of the Night Watch to guard it? Maybe if they're all abandoning their posts to fight each other, the Others will attack and the wall will come down?

 

[Timba]

Re: Jon Snow

I think it may end up as the Night Watch & the Queen's Men vs The Wildlings. And I believe the Wildlings would fight to the death, because they know that if they lose they will be put back on the other side of the Wall, which is pretty much a death sentence anyway. I think (though I might be mis-remembering) that the Wildlings outnumber the others?

Even if Jon is back on his feet quickly, I don't see how he could stop this fight happening. As Timba says, the giant has already started fighting, and I think it will only get worse from there. Maybe Mel will be able to pull off some magic trick that will scare everyone out of fighting, but I doubt it.

Maybe this will precipitate 'the end of the wall'. Doesn't it state that the Wall will stand so long as there are men of the Night Watch to guard it? Maybe if they're all abandoning their posts to fight each other, the Others will attack and the wall will come down?

I believe you are correct and the wildlings do outnumber the NW and Queen's men combined. Add the reality that they are all on the same side of the wall and indeed all in the same forts and all a bit testy to begin with and you have a recipe for disaster, perhaps you are correct, perhaps the wall falls and the Others flow into the North and that leaves us needing a whole new crackpot theory on how they will be met and defeated unless they turn out to be the good guys as one crackpot theory already postulates.

If the wall comes down a great many characters are going to find themselves thinking " I'm late, I'm late, for a very important date! No time to say hello, goodbye! I'm late, I'm late, I'm late!"

As I have said before and will undoubtably say again, I LOVE THIS SITE! I come each day needing a lift and leave with my mind awhirl with possibilities.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

I believe you are correct and the wildlings do outnumber the NW and Queen's men combined. Add the reality that they are all on the same side of the wall and indeed all in the same forts and all a bit testy to begin with and you have a recipe for disaster, perhaps you are correct, perhaps the wall falls and the Others flow into the North and that leaves us needing a whole new crackpot theory on how they will be met and defeated unless they turn out to be the good guys as one crackpot theory already postulates.

If the wall comes down a great many characters are going to find themselves thinking " I'm late, I'm late, for a very important date! No time to say hello, goodbye! I'm late, I'm late, I'm late!"

As I have said before and will undoubtably say again, I LOVE THIS SITE! I come each day needing a lift and leave with my mind awhirl with possibilities.

In that case, The LATE Lord Frey is AA reborn, and is actually the hero of the series. Who knew?

 

[Mesanna]

Re: Jon Snow

In that case, The LATE Lord Frey is AA reborn, and is actually the hero of the series. Who knew?

LMAO! Now that is the crackiest of crackpot theories!

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

In that case, The LATE Lord Frey is AA reborn, and is actually the hero of the series. Who knew?

LMAO! Now that is the crackiest of crackpot theories!

I can see it now: He will ride off to war upon his litter, with Lightbringer in one hand and the eighth Lady Freys breast in the other!

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

Back to Jon, don't know if this has been discussed here already,but here goes nothing. Does somebody has some thoughts on this - if Jon turns out to be one of the dragon heads, will he be able to warg in the dragon? And if yes than he is probably strongest skinchanger in all Westeros+Essos. Not by number of the beasts but by quality - Direwolf and Dragon!

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Back to Jon, don't know if this has been discussed here already,but here goes nothing. Does somebody has some thoughts on this - if Jon turns out to be one of the dragon heads, will he be able to warg in the dragon? And if yes than he is probably strongest skinchanger in all Westeros+Essos. Not by number of the beasts but by quality - Direwolf and Dragon!

It's been suggested GRRM was actually asked if a warg could move into a dragon, and his response was a very coy "we'll have to wait and see, won't we?" or something to that effect.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Re: Jon Snow

It's been suggested GRRM was actually asked if a warg could move into a dragon, and his response was a very coy "we'll have to wait and see, won't we?" or something to that effect.

Hmmm... That weasel, does he ever slips something about his work. Or does he only uses interviews as means to torture us, his unfortunate readers.

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

Hmmm... That weasel, does he ever slips something about his work. Or does he only uses interviews as means to torture us, his unfortunate readers.

I would say both because you never know which it is!

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Hmmm... That weasel, does he ever slips something about his work. Or does he only uses interviews as means to torture us, his unfortunate readers.

I don't think he's ever revealed anything that has yet to happen, other than a general statement that "there will be a lot of action at The Wall" in TWoW, or something vague such as that. Being able to warg into a dragon would be the equivilant of a nuclear weapon. I suspect that it will only happen if the force that is being encountered is vastly superior to whatever is available in the world right now. If I was GRRM I wouldn't answer that question either