Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Needle]

Arya wouldn't but No One might!

I don't believe it either, just my way of saying I would rather see Arya kill Jon than for Jon to kill Arya!

If you haven't noticed Oberyn, Arya is my girl to the bitter end!

 

[Oberyn]

i can see that ,needle! nd arya is my favourite character also

 

[Clansman]

How could Jon kill Arya, if Jon is already dead? Unless, Jon becomes one of the Others. I am only saying this because the last time we saw Jon, he appeared to be going rather "ungently into the night".

 

[The Imp]

How could Jon kill Arya, if Jon is already dead? Unless, Jon becomes one of the Others. I am only saying this because the last time we saw Jon, he appeared to be going rather "ungently into the night".

I strongly urge that you read this entire thread. I won't spoil the surprise, as the thoery kind of evolved, but Needle put together a great theory that very neatly explains how Jon could be alive.

 

[Grunkins]

I skimmed through the thread to get the basics of Needle's theory of "glamour Jon". I like it, BUT, if this is true it means GRRM essentially lied to us by not giving at least parts of the plan in Jon's thoughts. I don't think he can get away with doing this, nor do I think he would be inclined to try.

I'll read through the thread more thoroughly later, and probably reread that last Jon chapter to see if any more clues pop up.

 

[viZion]

I strongly urge that you read this entire thread. I won't spoil the surprise, as the thoery kind of evolved, but Needle put together a great theory that very neatly explains how Jon could be alive.

This thread is 34 pages long! And Needle's theory is buried somewhere in the middle. It probably could use its own thread. Anyway, next time I say you go ahead and spoil it or at least provide a link .

 

[The Imp]

This thread is 34 pages long! And Needle's theory is buried somewhere in the middle. It probably could use its own thread. Anyway, next time I say you go ahead and spoil it or at least provide a link .

I hadn't realized this thread had reached epic proportions.

I'll sum it up as best I can.

Jon and Melisandre planned for the danger that Jon faced in that last chapter.

Melisandre "glamoured" one of the corpses in the ice cell to look like Jon

Jon warged into the glamoured corpse

Jon wargs out of the corpse that was being stabbed by Bowen Marsh. The last line of the chapter is something like " he didn't feel the fourth stab, only the cold", meaning Jon was conscious enough to feel cold but not the stab, so he was likely out of that body.

 

[Iron captain]

Can't really see any flaws in the imps summary, sounds good, want to have some input but that hits the nail on the head, if he really isn't dead tho, if he is then GM should read this thread and heed us, don't want him to die :-( at least not yet.

 

[The Imp]

Can't really see any flaws in the imps summary, sounds good, want to have some input but that hits the nail on the head, if he really isn't dead tho, if he is then GM should read this thread and heed us, don't want him to die :-( at least not yet.

The theory makes perfect sense based on the events in aDWD including the prologue. I had come up with the idea of jon warging into one of the corpses. It was needle who BRILLIANTLY used the idea of glamour, which GRRM used twice in the story (with Mance and Rattleshirt0 and also alluded to in the prologue when Varamyr was thinking that some wargs didn't look the same without their animals.

 

[The Imp]

This is my post about the Varamyr chapter btw. I think it foreshadows Jon chapter in a few important ways

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/533395-what-we-learned-from-the-varamyr-pov-spoilers.html

 

[Iron captain]

I just finished re-reading ADWD and I see your point with the prologue, the first time I read it I found it somewhat random I enjoyed being varamry but considering the dangers and havoc the walkers and wights have already caused we are all very aware of thier increasing prescence so it seemed a bit fl and pointless, but on 2nd read thru, being well aware of jons fate I read that chapter with utmost care scouring over every word and you and needle have got it..surely lol

 

[The Imp]

I just finished re-reading ADWD and I see your point with the prologue, the first time I read it I found it somewhat random I enjoyed being varamry but considering the dangers and havoc the walkers and wights have already caused we are all very aware of thier increasing prescence so it seemed a bit fl and pointless, but on 2nd read thru, being well aware of jons fate I read that chapter with utmost care scouring over every word and you and needle have got it..surely lol

The same thing happened to me. I thought the Varamyr chapter was interesting, but then when i read it again (and again) it became clear to me that GRRM was giving us a Warging for Dummies and definitely foreshadowing future events.

For the future, i find the fact that a powerful warg can drive a less powerful one out of their animal to be really interesting.

 

[Oberyn]

I hadn't realized this thread had reached epic proportions.

I'll sum it up as best I can.

Jon and Melisandre planned for the danger that Jon faced in that last chapter.

Melisandre "glamoured" one of the corpses in the ice cell to look like Jon

Jon warged into the glamoured corpse

Jon wargs out of the corpse that was being stabbed by Bowen Marsh. The last line of the chapter is something like " he didn't feel the fourth stab, only the cold", meaning Jon was conscious enough to feel cold but not the stab, so he was likely out of that body.

this seems a very rational theory since mel had signs of jon s upcoming danger and the fact that she tried to warn him several times but in a futile attempt. there is also a probability that the giant in that situation helped jon by killing the conspirators and even mel kissing jon to bring him back to life like lord beric... But one thing is sure and that is jon being not dead

 

[Needle]

For our new arrivals here it is in all it's rambling glory!
http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/1528838-post223.html
Enjoy!

 

[Oberyn]

im afraid needles theory is exactly correct. what else can happen other than that

 

[Grunkins]

Again, my only problem with the theory is that GRRM would have been breaking a pact with the reader by not giving us at least the relevant parts of the plan through Jon's POV thoughts.

I can't see him doing that.

If someone can see how he may have gotten around it I'm very happy to listen because otherwise I like the theory a lot.

 

[Needle]

Again, my only problem with the theory is that GRRM would have been breaking a pact with the reader by not giving us at least the relevant parts of the plan through Jon's POV thoughts.

I can't see him doing that.

If someone can see how he may have gotten around it I'm very happy to listen because otherwise I like the theory a lot.

As much as I would truly love,love, love to answer for my theory again, my fully packed work week begins in about 2 hours, so alas I just do not have the needed time right now.

This theory was originally posted on page 15 of this thread and the full discussion follows. Many of the questions were addressed there. Ursa does an excellent job of answering your main question here http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/1529190-post238.html
When time allows I'll be back, happy reading!

 

[Tywin]

I love the theory.

However, the biggest flaw with the theory is that the author is GRR Martin, and doing what the reader would love him to do is not his style.

 

[The Imp]

I love the theory.

However, the biggest flaw with the theory is that the author is GRR Martin, and doing what the reader would love him to do is not his style.

GRRM has stated on a number of occasions that he doesn't let what readers are thinking or theorizing affect his writing. he doesn't read fan boards. The theory is solid and is foreshadowed perfectly. I think we'll find that something very close to it turns out to be true.

 

[Clansman]

I like Needle's theory, but my experience with GRRM is that it is, most unfortunately, wishful thinking, as GRRM is a murderous b******d. The man loves blood, especially when it belongs to the most beloved characters.

I guess I'll be waiting for another half-decade to find out whether or not Needle is right or wrong. I will say that I was mighty pissed off at GRRM at the end of that chapter, but Needle has given me a very thin thread of hope that Jon may yet live. He has been warging Ghost unkowingly and almost constantly for all of ADWD.