Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[amancalledsun]

And do we know for a certainty that it WAS Tyrion that poisoned Joff? I know that he admitted as such to Jamie as well as in ADWD but he was adamant of his innocence during his trial.

There is a passage from A Storm of Swords when Joffrey's death takes place.

"My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion's pie. It's I'll luck not to eat the pie," he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. "See, it's good." Spitting out flakes do crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful........

Based on that passage, it appears the poison was meant for Tyrion. And who wanted him dead more than most? Cersei.....which makes her the killer of her son.

 

[Grunkins]

And do we know for a certainty that it WAS Tyrion that poisoned Joff? I know that he admitted as such to Jamie as well as in ADWD but he was adamant of his innocence during his trial.

There is a passage from A Storm of Swords when Joffrey's death takes place.

"My uncle hasn't eaten his pigeon pie." Holding the chalice one-handed, Joff jammed his other into Tyrion's pie. It's I'll luck not to eat the pie," he scolded as he filled his mouth with hot spiced pigeon. "See, it's good." Spitting out flakes do crust, he coughed and helped himself to another fistful........

Based on that passage, it appears the poison was meant for Tyrion. And who wanted him dead more than most? Cersei.....which makes her the killer of her son.

In AFFC that gets cleared up. Definitely not Tyrion's doing. I am hesitant to say who it was because that might make rereading AFFC all the more fun for you.

edit: also, it wasn't the pie! :O

 

[amancalledsun]

Then it had to one of the Tyrell's. The Queen of Thorns or perhaps Garlan. Margaery was more than likely implicit as well.

 

[Oberyn]

i think it is littlefinger who poisoned joff..!! anyways everything started becoz of him!!

 

[Tywin]

While we're speaking of Joff let me add that if you haven't watched the first episode of the HBO Series Game of Thrones to see Joffrey get "Imp Slapped", then your missing out.
The Game of Thrones Parody series on youtube does a pretty good roll-up of it too.

 

[Grunkins]

While we're speaking of Joff let me add that if you haven't watched the first episode of the HBO Series Game of Thrones to see Joffrey get "Imp Slapped", then your missing out.
The Game of Thrones Parody series on youtube does a pretty good roll-up of it too.

One of my favorites: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYNeT2nzEgA

 

[Tywin]

Wow, that really was a full 10 minutes of Imp Slaps.

 

[Warren_Paul]

This thread just shows how brilliant of a story George Martin has woven, I can't think of another series I've read where these kind of debates go on.

I never thought about any of this when I was reading the books at the time, but in hindsight I am convinced that Jon is Lyanna's son, and that she died giving birth to him.

I would like to think that Rhagar is the father, and that they were in love, but a gut instinct is making me unfortunately lean towards believing Aerys had been a very busy man when he was alive. Either way, this thread convinced me Jon has Targayren blood in him, it makes sense for the overall story, and the name of the series.

There is also no doubt in my mind that Jon is still alive, Melisandre dropped too many hints for him to stumble into such a trap. And anyway, Jon, Dany and Tyrion are the three most critical characters to the story. If any of them were to die the story would fall flat. Jon is needed for the next book for sure, winter is no longer coming, its here. That means the wall will be attacked.

I'm sure we were shown the prologue in ADWD for the very reason as to hint at how Jon might have possibly survived.

 

[Skepsis]

Apologies in advance for posting anything that might already have cropped up in the previous pages; I haven't read every single one yet.

Just thought I'd put this out there though, in light of the "3 untouchable characters" theory, intertwined with theories of Jon's parentage.

Tyrion; last lord of Casterly Rock - mother died giving birth.
Dany; last Targaryan (aside from 'Young Griff') - mother died giving birth.
Jon; last important Stark (Bran is now a tree, and Rickon seems to have vanished), and if his mother is Lyanna then she probably died giving birth to him during Robert's Seige, where Ned found her.

 

[Timba]

Apologies in advance for posting anything that might already have cropped up in the previous pages; I haven't read every single one yet.

Just thought I'd put this out there though, in light of the "3 untouchable characters" theory, intertwined with theories of Jon's parentage.

Tyrion; last lord of Casterly Rock - mother died giving birth.
Dany; last Targaryan (aside from 'Young Griff') - mother died giving birth.
Jon; last important Stark (Bran is now a tree, and Rickon seems to have vanished), and if his mother is Lyanna then she probably died giving birth to him during Robert's Seige, where Ned found her.

That is an interesting insight. Absolutely no idea what it might mean but you have at least found a connection, assuming the "3 untouchable characters" is a valid theory. One more thing, in a seemingly endless series of ideas about this series. I cannot think of anything else I have ever read that generated as much speculation.

 

[viZion]

Apologies in advance for posting anything that might already have cropped up in the previous pages; I haven't read every single one yet.

Just thought I'd put this out there though, in light of the "3 untouchable characters" theory, intertwined with theories of Jon's parentage.

Tyrion; last lord of Casterly Rock - mother died giving birth.
Dany; last Targaryan (aside from 'Young Griff') - mother died giving birth.
Jon; last important Stark (Bran is now a tree, and Rickon seems to have vanished), and if his mother is Lyanna then she probably died giving birth to him during Robert's Seige, where Ned found her.

I'm not trying to shoot you down here because it's a good connection to make. But these points have been brought up many times before (maybe not in this thread). It's one of the reasons often cited as why these three will be the "Heads of the Dragons". If you go back to Boaz's crackpot theory that says Tyrion is a Targaryen (it's actually quite possible) then all three are related as well.

 

[Rufio]

Yeah, I was going to say it's also possible that all three's fathers were Targaryens.

I don't quite buy the Tyrion Targ theories, I can see it's possible but the evidence is much less in amount and much more speculative in nature than the evidence for R+L=J. Also I think there's an element of wishful thinking in the theory that Tyrion, Jon, and Dany are the three heads of the dragon, because these are many people's favourite characters.

It's an interesting paralell between the three though.

I honestly don't know where GRRM is going with the Jon story. I'm assuming he's not dead, at least not permanently, but where he'll go next is a mystery to me.

 

[Tywin]

I honestly don't know where GRRM is going with the Jon story. I'm assuming he's not dead, at least not permanently, but where he'll go next is a mystery to me.

I choose to believe that he's hanging out with Eddard and Robb pretending to be dead until the right moment when they will ride in and save the day.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I'm only at the end of the second book - but I only started to read them last week, so I'll catch up quickly, but there has already been a good lot of hints about the three heads of the dragon and a definite hint that Jon might be one of them.... and I'm awful, I'm thoroughly enjoying the spoilers, but for me its always about the telling and not neccessarily what happens next (I tend to read things loads of times if I like them.)

Anyway, pleasantly surprised and finding the focus of one chapter on one person gives me a chance to keep track of the different threads, which I usually struggle with when faced with multi character'ed epics. I'd be surprised if he killed Jon off, he seems the character he's most comfy writing, and they're always the hardest to kill.

 

[Tywin]

Why would you be reading this thread if you are only at the end of the second book?

 

[Mesanna]

Apropos of nothing, springs1971, I *love* your profile pic!! Mega flashback!

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I picked it up to look at how he did his pov 'cos I was having problems nailing 3rd person multiple pov and then got into it (the first one). I've never really worried about knowing what comes next in a book - I often speed read and then go back and read it much more leisurely, - so I'm not worried about spoilers. (plus, I used to crib a lot with york notes)

So, anyway I was ambling along and ended up reading this thread and one of the comments happened to hit on something I'd just read in the second book and there you have it.*

Is it only because of spoilers I shouldn't? Or is it because I may not have the full understanding of what comes next? In which case a fresh eye, reading it for the first time, might find such a thread useful to add depth to their reading.


*it is possible I'm just weird

@Mesana, cheers!

 

[Warren_Paul]

Uh oh, Springs has found the George R.R. Martin forums... Quick, hide!


To be honest, I actually wished I had read this thread before the books, because I would have seen things a lot differently than I had. I went through the whole story so far thinking Jon really was Ned's son and never really thinking much about Lyanna and Ned's past at all.

I always thought it would be Dany who would win in the end when I was reading, after the last book I wasn't so sure anymore, but then I read this thread. It had never occurred to me that the grand finale, who wins the 'game of thrones' etc, might actually be a joint effort (heads of the dragon).

Right now I'm just not sure where Aegon fits in with all this, introducing him in the last book was an unexpected twist to everything. (at least for me)

 

[Needle]

springs1971 Welcome to our corner of the SFC! As to your question, weirdness is a natural part of life around here! But I have to say that even though I too read and re-reread my favorite stories to shreds you may find many things here that, to me anyway, I would not have wanted to know ahead of my first reading. Just fair warning, again welcome!

 

[harbinger31]

Hi! New to the forum and literally just finished reading aDwD about three hours ago. Then went to wash dishes, and independently came up with the "Jon is not Jon" theory. Then Googled, and got here.

Wanted to add something that I think is under-touched upon: Jon is *really* not like himself in his last chapter, especially when getting the letter. A number of his anecdotes ("as we say," etc) are, unless I'm remembering very wrong, unlike anything he's ever said before. And his reaction to the letter is totally out of character based on everything we've seen since he took the Black.

I can't figure out exactly how the Body Switch would take place if Jon is not Jon, and to me that seems a little too...convenient. Nevertheless, it's very plausible and I think at this point it's the most likely situation.

But I was reminded of another fairly recent surprise fantasy-series death: Dumbledore. The death, which seemed like a super-horrible ambush/betrayal/murder was anything but. And I think something like this is in play here, too. Jon is very clearly not himself (at least in terms of attitude) in that chapter. And why cry if you're doing something that you feel is just, from the perspective of Bowen Marsh? If Jon really ruined the Night's Watch that badly, you should be elated to stab him.

Of course, if there's some collusion between Marsh/other assailants/the Giant distraction/etc...that informs the entire thing way better.

Finally (to wrap up a long first post,) there's no evidence that anything in the letter came to pass -- and the only person with knowledge of everything in the letter (6 spearwives, etc. etc.) would be Jon himself*. Regardless of whether Jon was in on his own stabbing (and to what degree,) the letter does not fit with anything else in either aDwD or the preview we've seen of tWoW. So the letter, to me, seems a plant by Jon or someone extremely close to him, and not authentically Ramsay Snow.

*This does not explain the Reek reference, but everything else seems to fit. Again, I only wrapped the book a couple of hours ago, so those more read and re-read than I may be able to flesh out more detail.