Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[The Imp]

I like Needle's theory, but my experience with GRRM is that it is, most unfortunately, wishful thinking, as GRRM is a murderous b******d. The man loves blood, especially when it belongs to the most beloved characters.

I guess I'll be waiting for another half-decade to find out whether or not Needle is right or wrong. I will say that I was mighty pissed off at GRRM at the end of that chapter, but Needle has given me a very thin thread of hope that Jon may yet live. He has been warging Ghost unkowingly and almost constantly for all of ADWD.

Didn't you find it odd that he stashed those two fresh corpses in that ice cell, and then we heard nothing more about it? I had speculated that these bodies would be a perfect way to practice warging without anyone knowing.

 

[Grunkins]

Didn't you find it odd that he stashed those two fresh corpses in that ice cell, and then we heard nothing more about it? I had speculated that these bodies would be a perfect way to practice warging without anyone knowing.

Sorry if this has been covered repeatedly, but do we have any evidence of anyone warging into a dead body?

Or is it more of a Mel reanimated the body then Jon warged into it?

 

[The Imp]

Sorry if this has been covered repeatedly, but do we have any evidence of anyone warging into a dead body?

Or is it more of a Mel reanimated the body then Jon warged into it?

I think that was something Jon wanted to find out. It may very well be that Mel had to ressurect one for Jon to be able to warg into it.

 

[Quick Ben]

Instead of these theories, is there anything to stop the very simple one of....Jon surviving his wounds? Maybe they didn't catch him in the 'right' areas? (I've only read ADWD once and was too shocked at the time to remeber the exact passage). And he will simply wake up in a cold and dark cell on the Wall once The Winds of Winter begins.

 

[The Imp]

Instead of these theories, is there anything to stop the very simple one of....Jon surviving his wounds? Maybe they didn't catch him in the 'right' areas? (I've only read ADWD once and was too shocked at the time to remeber the exact passage). And he will simply wake up in a cold and dark cell on the Wall once The Winds of Winter begins.

Here's the passage Ben

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. "Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …

 

[viZion]

Instead of these theories, is there anything to stop the very simple one of....Jon surviving his wounds? Maybe they didn't catch him in the 'right' areas? (I've only read ADWD once and was too shocked at the time to remeber the exact passage). And he will simply wake up in a cold and dark cell on the Wall once The Winds of Winter begins.

This is actually my favorite theory. The other theories (especially Needle's) are cool but they rely on so many things happening and are a bit complicated. The simplest explanation seems like the most correct one to me. He simply survives his wounds. It's not like people don't survive grave injuries in this series. Like I've said before, pretty much every Tyrion chapter ends with him getting maimed in some way . Also, the *entire* story doesn't even get going until Bran survives a fall from a freaking tower!

 

[Needle]

While it is true that the simplest solution is usually the best and we should never disregard the obvious, in this case I just don't see it working. Time and circumstance are a major problem. We know Jon was stabbed, at least (we don't know if one more time or many after we can no longer see) twice, in the belly and between the shoulder blades. These are both major stab wounds, we are talking probably intestine, lung and even heart or spine, a big possibly deadly deal even here and now. In a medieval setting? I think your toast! Plus you will now have Jon's men and the wildlings in a last man standing battle with Bowen's men. if Jon cannot stop it very quickly, there will be no NW.

Just FYI, I think Tyrion is gonna be an ugly head in a jar before GRRM is through with him!

 

[Tywin]

GRRM has stated on a number of occasions that he doesn't let what readers are thinking or theorizing affect his writing. he doesn't read fan boards. The theory is solid and is foreshadowed perfectly. I think we'll find that something very close to it turns out to be true.

I'm not talking about fan boards, Imp. What I'm talking about is that he understands what the reader expects out of plotlines that he specifically writes them so that we are left to think something is going to happen... and then he strikes. Usually things fizzle back to something like real-world reality just when we're expecting the dramatic.

 

[The Imp]

I'm not talking about fan boards, Imp. What I'm talking about is that he understands what the reader expects out of plot lines that he specifically writes them so that we are left to think something is going to happen... and then he strikes. Usually things fizzle back to something like real-world reality just when we're expecting the dramatic.

I don't think that's entirely true. GRRM has said that he leaves clues and foreshadows. There is a great explanation given by him in the interview he did at the Google Campus, which I strongly suggest you listen to. He categorically says that he lays the groundwork for events using prophecy, clues and other types of foreshadowing.

This is the link. You either believe him or not, but I believe that he's not going to pull some crazy event out of a hat in an effort to trick his readers or surprise them. As an example, The Red Wedding is totally obvious when you re-read the series. I mean so obvious that you're amazed that you didn't see it the first time around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTTW8M_etko

 

[Grunkins]

The Red Wedding is totally obvious when you re-read the series. I mean so obvious that you're amazed that you didn't see it the first time around.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTTW8M_etko

Oh how I yearn for the eradication of House Frey.

Frey Pie ftw.

 

[Clansman]

I am of the belief that to leave this kind of cliff hanger is beneath an accomplished writer. It is usually a cheap mechanism used by inferior authors to get readers to buy the next book, and I think it was a little beneath GRRM to employ a cliff-hanger ending, unless he has tWoW in the can and ready to go for Christmas 2012 (which we know he doesn't). He knows that we love his books, and it is kind of cruel to inflict this level of pain on us. I mean, it is not as if it's Brienne's so-called last word (we're still waiting on that one!), but the death/un-death of a major character who appeared in the first chapters of the first book and has been with us ever since.

He could have completed Jon's story in ADWD by having a final chapter, where he wakes up in the ice cell, as is speculated above, and then we are left to speculate on his response to the treachery of his so-called brothers. Alas, he did not, and I find his use of this major cliffhanger disappointing, to say the least, and cheap, particularly given the long waits between books.

Anyway, I really hope Jon's not dead.

(murderous GRRM b*****d!)

 

[The Imp]

I am of the belief that to leave this kind of cliff hanger is beneath an accomplished writer. It is usually a cheap mechanism used by inferior authors to get readers to buy the next book, and I think it was a little beneath GRRM to employ a cliff-hanger ending, unless he has tWoW in the can and ready to go for Christmas 2012 (which we know he doesn't). He knows that we love his books, and it is kind of cruel to inflict this level of pain on us. I mean, it is not as if it's Brienne's so-called last word (we're still waiting on that one!), but the death/un-death of a major character who appeared in the first chapters of the first book and has been with us ever since.

He could have completed Jon's story in ADWD by having a final chapter, where he wakes up in the ice cell, as is speculated above, and then we are left to speculate on his response to the treachery of his so-called brothers. Alas, he did not, and I find his use of this major cliffhanger disappointing, to say the least, and cheap, particularly given the long waits between books.

Anyway, I really hope Jon's not dead.

(murderous GRRM b*****d!)

GRRm loves his cliffhangers, but keep in mind that gRRM's pattern is to never kill someone in one. The slight exception is Cat, but it was really clear that she was going to bleed out from a totally sliced throat, and we did find out what happened by the end of the book.

I don't beleive Jon is gone from the story.

 

[amancalledsun]

Hi everyone.

I've been reading about the different theories concerning the possibility that Jon could actually be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I had never thought of it before but after reading the theory, it makes sense to me.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before but I remember reading in the first book (I believe) that Lyanna pleading with Eddard to promise her. Promise her what? It makes perfect sense to me that the promise Eddard made to his sister was to raise her son as his own. It was a promise he knew he had to make and it haunted him, because he knew the damage it would cause to his marriage with Cat. Which is why when Bran viewed him in the weirwood he was apologizing for a secret he had to keep. At first I thought that maybe Jon was the son of Robert and Lyanna but now I think the evidence is more strongly in favor of him being the son Rhaegar.

Thats my take anyway....and like I said, I'm sure that this has already been debated many times over.

 

[Needle]

Hi everyone.

I've been reading about the different theories concerning the possibility that Jon could actually be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I had never thought of it before but after reading the theory, it makes sense to me.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before but I remember reading in the first book (I believe) that Lyanna pleading with Eddard to promise her. Promise her what? It makes perfect sense to me that the promise Eddard made to his sister was to raise her son as his own. It was a promise he knew he had to make and it haunted him, because he knew the damage it would cause to his marriage with Cat. Which is why when Bran viewed him in the weirwood he was apologizing for a secret he had to keep. At first I thought that maybe Jon was the son of Robert and Lyanna but now I think the evidence is more strongly in favor of him being the son Rhaegar.

Thats my take anyway....and like I said, I'm sure that this has already been debated many times over.

Hello amancalledsun! I get to be the first to welcome you!

The R+L=J theory as we call it here has indeed been much debated, keep looking around and you find more than you probably want to read about it! I think it has become pretty widely accepted, I for one am almost sure of it, but anything coming from GRRM is not true till he tells us it is, he is a tricksy one!

Just wanted to add: you don't say how far you have read, if you are not completely finished with ADWD, as much as we welcome everyone, I must advise you to run while you can 'cause it will take about 5 minutes here to run into some major spoilers!

Again Welcome!

 

[The Imp]

Hi everyone.

I've been reading about the different theories concerning the possibility that Jon could actually be the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna. I had never thought of it before but after reading the theory, it makes sense to me.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before but I remember reading in the first book (I believe) that Lyanna pleading with Eddard to promise her. Promise her what? It makes perfect sense to me that the promise Eddard made to his sister was to raise her son as his own. It was a promise he knew he had to make and it haunted him, because he knew the damage it would cause to his marriage with Cat. Which is why when Bran viewed him in the weirwood he was apologizing for a secret he had to keep. At first I thought that maybe Jon was the son of Robert and Lyanna but now I think the evidence is more strongly in favor of him being the son Rhaegar.

Thats my take anyway....and like I said, I'm sure that this has already been debated many times over.

Welcome to the forum

I think the promise is two-fold. First, Eddard promised to raise Jon as his own, but in addition, he was to never talk about his heritage, and Eddard was to NEVER mention that Rhaegar is Jon's true father. Or so we think

 

[amancalledsun]

Thanks for the welcome!

I've finished ADWD.....minutes before my first post here, so no worries about spoilers!!

I was wondering though. Now that some of us think we have figured out Jon's true heritage, is GRRM the type of writer that is liable to change it it all up again, in spite, and partly because it has been discovered?

 

[Grunkins]

Thanks for the welcome!

I've finished ADWD.....minutes before my first post here, so no worries about spoilers!!

I was wondering though. Now that some of us think we have figured out Jon's true heritage, is GRRM the type of writer that is liable to change it it all up again, in spite, and partly because it has been discovered?

Thankfully, no chance. He doesn't read any boards for exactly that reason. He's laid his groundwork (foreshadowing and whatnot) for one outcome, and he's working toward that outcome.

and welcome to the forums

 

[The Imp]

Thanks for the welcome!

I've finished ADWD.....minutes before my first post here, so no worries about spoilers!!

I was wondering though. Now that some of us think we have figured out Jon's true heritage, is GRRM the type of writer that is liable to change it it all up again, in spite, and partly because it has been discovered?

this interview is well worth listening to. In it, GRRM talks about this and many other things. If I remember correctly, you can skip the first 6 or 7 minutes, it's just intros.

This interview should really be stickied IMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTTW8M_etko

 

[amancalledsun]

Thanks for the link!

I was also wondering, what ever happened to the contract that Robb had made (before the events of the Red Wedding) naming Jon his heir? Most, if not all of the Lords of the North signed it, so surely it couldn't have just disappeared!

And why does GRRM hate the Starks so much!! It almost seemed like GRRM was almost brutal in his eagerness to rid his story of them while the Lannisters and Frey's remain relatively unscathed!! There is a blood debt that needs to be paid!!

 

[Grunkins]

Thanks for the link!

I was also wondering, what ever happened to the contract that Robb had made (before the events of the Red Wedding) naming Jon his heir? Most, if not all of the Lords of the North signed it, so surely it couldn't have just disappeared!

And why does GRRM hate the Starks so much!! It almost seemed like GRRM was almost brutal in his eagerness to rid his story of them while the Lannisters and Frey's remain relatively unscathed!! There is a blood debt that needs to be paid!!

Regarding the legitimizing of Jon, we don't know, it's in theoryland at the moment, so feel free to speculate and share your thoughts.

Regarding Stark hatred, well, look at the upside, Bran might have a taste of near-immortality.
And Freys get eaten in a pie.
And house Lannister is in all sorts of disarray right now, Tywin dead, Kevan dead, the Little Sh*t dead, Cersei in all sorts of trouble, Jaime riding into a trap and feeling very negative toward the rest of his family, and good ole Tyrion is having bizare sex fantasies about killing his sister.

All in all the pain is pretty well spread out.