Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Jo Zebedee]

Uh oh, Springs has found the George R.R. Martin forums... Quick, hide!

Hee. Be nice.

springs1971 Welcome to our corner of the SFC! As to your question, weirdness is a natural part of life around here! But I have to say that even though I too read and re-reread my favorite stories to shreds you may find many things here that, to me anyway, I would not have wanted to know ahead of my first reading. Just fair warning, again welcome!

Thanks for the welcome, Needle. To be honest I've kind of been lurking and reading the entries for a while, cos the film was done just up the road. So, I suspect I've already read most of the spoilers (but it hasn't ruined the enjoyment of the books, just like, I suspect, seeing LOTR on film first doesn't ruin the book for a reader)

 

[Ursa major]

Hi! New to the forum and literally just finished reading aDwD about three hours ago. Then went to wash dishes, and independently came up with the "Jon is not Jon" theory. Then Googled, and got here.

Wanted to add something that I think is under-touched upon: Jon is *really* not like himself in his last chapter, especially when getting the letter. A number of his anecdotes ("as we say," etc) are, unless I'm remembering very wrong, unlike anything he's ever said before. And his reaction to the letter is totally out of character based on everything we've seen since he took the Black.

I can't figure out exactly how the Body Switch would take place if Jon is not Jon, and to me that seems a little too...convenient. Nevertheless, it's very plausible and I think at this point it's the most likely situation.

But I was reminded of another fairly recent surprise fantasy-series death: Dumbledore. The death, which seemed like a super-horrible ambush/betrayal/murder was anything but. And I think something like this is in play here, too. Jon is very clearly not himself (at least in terms of attitude) in that chapter. And why cry if you're doing something that you feel is just, from the perspective of Bowen Marsh? If Jon really ruined the Night's Watch that badly, you should be elated to stab him.

Of course, if there's some collusion between Marsh/other assailants/the Giant distraction/etc...that informs the entire thing way better.

Finally (to wrap up a long first post,) there's no evidence that anything in the letter came to pass -- and the only person with knowledge of everything in the letter (6 spearwives, etc. etc.) would be Jon himself*. Regardless of whether Jon was in on his own stabbing (and to what degree,) the letter does not fit with anything else in either aDwD or the preview we've seen of tWoW. So the letter, to me, seems a plant by Jon or someone extremely close to him, and not authentically Ramsay Snow.

*This does not explain the Reek reference, but everything else seems to fit. Again, I only wrapped the book a couple of hours ago, so those more read and re-read than I may be able to flesh out more detail.

The only problem with Jon not being Jon in his last chapter in ADWD is that it would require GRRM to be be out-and-out deceitful, i.e. he would be giving the chapter the wrong name.

Now I'm quite prepared to accept that not everything a character knows is going to appear on the page, though GRRM's PoV characters are reasonably open in their thoughts. I'm prepared never to get to see what Littlefinger and Varys, amongst others, are thinking. (And I think this speaks for GRRM's honesty** within each individual chapter: if his characters were allowed to lie to the readers, we would be allowed to see a little of what's inside these characters' heads). I'm prepared to have events happen out of the sight of the PoV characters, or if a PoV character is around, for them not to mention the events until later, in an abbreviated form.

But calling a chapter, Jon, when the PoV character is not Jon, would be to risk breaking the readers' trust.

We have a theory that suggests that Jon may not be quite what he appears (appears to the other characters, that is), but we still believe that we are being shown what the real Jon is experiencing. (His thoughts may be guarded, but that's acceptable: if his concentration is on what's around him, there's no need for him to spend the time considering how clever he's being and how some people are in for a bit of a shock.)

So my conclusion is that GRRM is not out and out lying, and that Jon is the real Jon in that chapter.



** - GRRM is tricksy, but not a liar. His tricks are sleights of hand, like a magician's. The trickery occurs out of sight, while we're being distracted. We're told the truth, nothing but the truth, but not necessarily the whole truth.

 

[Needle]

Just to clarify my "Jon is not dead because Jon is not Jon" theory- I only say that his body is not his. The thoughts and actions presented as Jon are indeed Jon's. Therefore there is no deceit on the part of GRRM.

 

[Timba]

I picked it up to look at how he did his pov 'cos I was having problems nailing 3rd person multiple pov and then got into it (the first one). I've never really worried about knowing what comes next in a book - I often speed read and then go back and read it much more leisurely, - so I'm not worried about spoilers. (plus, I used to crib a lot with york notes)

So, anyway I was ambling along and ended up reading this thread and one of the comments happened to hit on something I'd just read in the second book and there you have it.*

Is it only because of spoilers I shouldn't? Or is it because I may not have the full understanding of what comes next? In which case a fresh eye, reading it for the first time, might find such a thread useful to add depth to their reading.


*it is possible I'm just weird

@Mesana, cheers!

Having attempted to entice Springs to leave the Last Post Wins Thread I can safely say there is no possible involved

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Having attempted to entice Springs to leave the Last Post Wins Thread I can safely say there is no possible involved

There is a danger of me shoving you out of the hammock while I try to read , but you're safe for now, the critiques thread is keeping me very busy typing. Still, onto the third book now and stayed up to 1.30 in the morning reading it.

 

[Timba]

There is a danger of me shoving you out of the hammock while I try to read , but you're safe for now, the critiques thread is keeping me very busy typing. Still, onto the third book now and stayed up to 1.30 in the morning reading it.

It is my hammock and I am not budging, however, I will share, I am a skinny old curmudgeon so there should be plenty of room.

 

[Tharkun]

I just had one more addition to Needle's theory. It was much discussed that Jon was acting very un-jonlike during this chapter in aDwD. This could be because he was warging into another body (the ice body if Needle is correct) and influenced by the feelings of that person (reanimated corpse). We see Varamyr discuss the kinds of animals that skinchangers "shouldn't" become because of how it changed their perspective. Perhaps Jon was acting in this way because of the influence of the real owner of the body he was occupying.

 

[The Imp]

I just had one more addition to Needle's theory. It was much discussed that Jon was acting very un-jonlike during this chapter in aDwD. This could be because he was warging into another body (the ice body if Needle is correct) and influenced by the feelings of that person (reanimated corpse). We see Varamyr discuss the kinds of animals that skinchangers "shouldn't" become because of how it changed their perspective. Perhaps Jon was acting in this way because of the influence of the real owner of the body he was occupying.

Welcome to the forum

I don't think what you say is right, because we also know from the Varmyr chapter and from Bran chapters that people don't like having their minds invaded. The bodies in the ice cell were dead, but "fresh", giving Jon the opportunity to warg into a body without having to fight the living inhabitant.

 

[Tharkun]

Welcome to the forum

I don't think what you say is right, because we also know from the Varmyr chapter and from Bran chapters that people don't like having their minds invaded. The bodies in the ice cell were dead, but "fresh", giving Jon the opportunity to warg into a body without having to fight the living inhabitant.

Thanks! I like it here. Haven't been active on a book thread since college.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, Imp. If Melisandre were to have reanimated the body, at least some part of the original inhabitant would have remained a la Beric Dondarrion. That remaining personality is what I'm thinking was influencing Jon, much like the imprint from the Eagle influenced Varamyr to hate Jon.

 

[Needle]

I just had one more addition to Needle's theory. It was much discussed that Jon was acting very un-jonlike during this chapter in aDwD. This could be because he was warging into another body (the ice body if Needle is correct) and influenced by the feelings of that person (reanimated corpse). We see Varamyr discuss the kinds of animals that skinchangers "shouldn't" become because of how it changed their perspective. Perhaps Jon was acting in this way because of the influence of the real owner of the body he was occupying.

Welcome to the forum

I don't think what you say is right, because we also know from the Varmyr chapter and from Bran chapters that people don't like having their minds invaded. The bodies in the ice cell were dead, but "fresh", giving Jon the opportunity to warg into a body without having to fight the living inhabitant.

Thanks! I like it here. Haven't been active on a book thread since college.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, Imp. If Melisandre were to have reanimated the body, at least some part of the original inhabitant would have remained a la Beric Dondarrion. That remaining personality is what I'm thinking was influencing Jon, much like the imprint from the Eagle influenced Varamyr to hate Jon.

First let me say WELCOME THARKUN!

It did seem that the wrights retained some memory of who the were aka: going after the Lord Commander.

As the author of this not so crackpot theory I have to tell you this would not be the case with the body inhabited by Jon because: Mel did not reanimate the body, Jon warged it! Mel's only contribution was to glamour it to look like Jon.

However walking around with your mind in a dead body has to make you off just a little!

 

[Ursa major]

I guess that at least one aspect of the dead body must have begun to get up Jon's nose.

 

[Katrina Stark]

Hey guys, I've been lurking for a little while and just finished going through this thread (it is veeeeeeeeeeery long, lol). I must say I love Needle's theory, even if I'm not 100% convinced - just a little too convoluted. But so much better than no more Jon - I'm not sure if I could go on without him, snif.

Still, to add to the discussion, here is my question - if Jon was leaving a thawing body to go back to his warm and safe one, why would he feel cold? That's what doesn't fit for me.

And to play devil's advocate on another theory (that he is warging into a dead frozen body when he starts feeling cold) could that not be simple blood loss, and not something supernatural?

Just a thought....

 

[Warren_Paul]

But so much better than no more Jon - I'm not sure if I could go on without him, snif.

Well we are all pretty confident that he is definitely not dead. I think GRRM's comment:

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow?
GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

Is a pretty big give-away without actually coming out and saying it. Reading between the lines, that says he is not dead, imo.

As to how he survived, its going to be debated for the next few years I think...

I can't decide on a theory, but suspect his warg powers and Milisandre will be involved.

 

[Runic]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post on here, but I've been reading for a few weeks. I was just getting used to the whole warging into corpse debate, but then I just had another idea whilst in the shower!

I seem to recall that Melisandre tried to get Jon to fire-gaze.

What if his last chapter is Jon's vision? He wouldn't "feel" any blows. The smoking wound would be from the fire in "reality". Stick them with the pointy end - he possibly went into the vision wanting to find out what had happened to Arya. The last thing he remembered was the cold....when the fire died out and he was brought back to "reality".

Just a thought, sorry if this has been covered before...

 

[Katrina Stark]

I've never heard quite this one before, but I suppose it has merit...

 

[The Imp]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post on here, but I've been reading for a few weeks. I was just getting used to the whole warging into corpse debate, but then I just had another idea whilst in the shower!

I seem to recall that Melisandre tried to get Jon to fire-gaze.

What if his last chapter is Jon's vision? He wouldn't "feel" any blows. The smoking wound would be from the fire in "reality". Stick them with the pointy end - he possibly went into the vision wanting to find out what had happened to Arya. The last thing he remembered was the cold....when the fire died out and he was brought back to "reality".

Just a thought, sorry if this has been covered before...

Welcome

Wonderful first post. I'll have to think about this some, but my first instinct is to say that it's probably not true.

 

[Warren_Paul]

but then I just had another idea whilst in the shower!

What is it with epiphanies and the showers?


Interesting concept, prompts me to dig out my copy of ADWD and read Jon's last two chapters again. I'm not sure, but I'm leaning in the direction of The Imp, and saying not likely true, but is still something to think about.

 

[Katrina Stark]

I've gone ahead and re-read the last Jon chapter, and there are really very few clues, IMO.

There is a moment right after he receives the letter that might suggest Jon went to Melisandre:

When you have your answers, send to me.

But afterwards, when he is leaving the hall, he thinks:

I should talk to Melisandre after I see the queen.

Which suggests that even though he thinks he should talk to the Red Priestess, he probably hasn't done so yet. So I do believer that, even though I would love for Jon not to be really hurt, it probably was him being stabbed, and if he's going to survive, it will largely depend on his own skills and endurance. Perhaps on Melisandre's healing skills as well, since she was close by, in the hall.

I'm starting to hate this chapter. I loved the fact that Jon was starting to get involved with the other war, that he had the loyalty of so many, just to suddenly get stabbed?! Talk about reversal of expectations!!!

 

[Runic]

Hi Everyone,

Thanks Imp!

Something else for this mix. I re-read Jon's last chapter. Jon mentions or thinks in the narrative something about a "promised prince re-born of smoke and salt" this is the ever popular Azor Ahai reference. Maester Aemon (this bit from my memory, not his Jon's chapter), himself blood of the dragon, mentions that light bringer was a fake or has no heat, just light.

Now, back to my train of thought before it slows for its station......

If Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's he would have blood of Dragon and First Men in his veins. Maester Aemon was in some part kept alive by the magic of The Wall, so therefore if it was raised by The First Men and Children of The Forest, and if enough straws are grasped and barrels scraped, we have an excellent excuse for a "not today" without an unwanted resurrection from the lips of Melisandre or commandeered by Bran once he's "all-wight" (I do apologise!)

To add further wildfire to the Stark, so to speak, if Valyrian Steel is the same as Dragonsteel, then it stands to reason that The Old Valyrians had encountered and/or created the White Walkers. If Jon does have multiple old bloodlines in place, and is at a place of old power, and obviously has Bran watching over him through at least The Wall's ravens, and probably Ghost, then we have all the ingredients for the recipe of Jon's survival.

And/Or its all just a vision!

 

[Katrina Stark]

So... he wouldn't survive because of the power of the lord of light, or because of his warging, but because the wall protected him? That's an interesting idea.

I would point out that except for Maester Aemon, no one has ever had any such reaction to proximity to the wall, and even he was only blessed with old age, not some superhuman protection against injury. But I remember the passage you are referring to, it also struck me - something about fire consuming, and ice preserving...

Food for theorizing, lol.