Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Silvise]

If Dragonsteel is another name for Valaryian Steel the theory that Jon is Azor Ahai reborn makes even more sense, because the sword given to him by Mormont could be representative of Light Bringer.
It would be the sword that forces back the darkness (The Others).

"According to prophesy, in ancient books of Asshai from over five thousand years ago, Azor Ahai is to be reborn again as The Prince that was Promised to challenge the Others. This will occur after a long summer when an evil, cold darkness descends upon the world. It is said that The Prince that was Promised, wielding Lightbringer once again, will stand against the Others and if he fails, the world fails with him.
“ "There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.""

 

[Katrina Stark]

I think that the theory that says that Jon is TPTWP has some good evidence going for it. I still have a problem with the "draw from the fire" bit - although if you consider Mormont gifted him with the blade after Jon saved him from a fire... It could work.

 

[Runic]

I was thinking about the fire that Jon created to save Mormont, and how it burnt his hand. Then I was thinking, Does that make him not a Targ? but then Viserys was burnt from a molten gold crown, not fire, and Jon was burnt from the lantern, not the flame. Thank you again, Katrina for liking one of my theories!

 

[Runic]

Hold on a moment, thank you Silvise for putting up the prophecy.

Are we all being totally stupid here? Are we thinking that when all he can feel is the cold is the cold touch of death?

Could there The Others be attacking at that point? That will tie in nicely with the prophecy....

 

[Katrina Stark]

There is just so much happening in that last paragraph! It could drive anyone insane speculating - because at the same time it is so very short!

He gets stabbed.
His wound is smoking - maybe just the heat of his body touching the cold, maybe something more important.
He thinks of Ghost - maybe starts warging, maybe not.
He thinks of Arya - and I suppose that isn't relevant to the question of his survival, but who know, she might turn up with her new ninja skills and save the day, lol.
He feels three stabs, then just the cold. Death, warging into frozen bodies, Others attacking...

I swear, the wait will be pure torture. Jon is my favourite character, and this cliffhanger is simply cruel.

 

[Katrina Stark]

I was thinking about the fire that Jon created to save Mormont, and how it burnt his hand. Then I was thinking, Does that make him not a Targ? but then Viserys was burnt from a molten gold crown, not fire, and Jon was burnt from the lantern, not the flame. Thank you again, Katrina for liking one of my theories!

I don't think Targs are immune to fire - just maybe a little fire-resistant. I remember Dany liked her baths nearly burning in AGOT, for example.

But except for the exceptional occurrence of the Dragon's hatching, Targs will still get burned if exposed directly to a flame - Viserys is the perfect example, but Dany also gets a little blistered somewhere in ADWD.

So, I don't think Jon getting burnt completely invalidates the theory that he is half-targ. However, the fact that the fire really hurt him (there is a very poignant passage when he remembers the pain in his hand after he saves Mormont) could possibly have an impact on the whole "Jon as the head of a dragon" theory. Dany had to face Drogon in order to master him, and very nearly get roasted. I'm not sure Jon would be willing to do that...

 

[Silvise]

I was thinking about the fire that Jon created to save Mormont, and how it burnt his hand. Then I was thinking, Does that make him not a Targ? but then Viserys was burnt from a molten gold crown, not fire, and Jon was burnt from the lantern, not the flame. Thank you again, Katrina for liking one of my theories!

I also recall an interview I read where GRR stated that the situation with Danyreas and the Funeral Phyre was a one time, special, occurrence. I do not think they normally are immune to fire.

 

[Silvise]

As an afterthought, it's also possible that the sword is not really a sword at all but a metaphor for something else.
No idea what, but this comes from my suspicion that everyone in Westeros seems to misinterpret the Stark words. I take them as a warning (winter is coming...bringing with it the White Walkers). Though that itself is a discussion for another thread.

Also a quote from the Night's Watch oath:
"...I am the fire that burns against cold, the light that brings the dawn..."

I also forgot about these 2 important facts:

• When Melisandre looks into her fires for Azor Ahai, she sees only snow, a possible connection to Jon.
• Jon has a dream where he fights the Others with a red sword burning in his hand.

So yea...it's totally Jon. If not, I'm going to be really disappointed because there is SO much evidence.

 

[DmNd]

First time ever on one of these so bare with me guys.

I haven't read all of this mammoth forum, but I haven't seen any theories that it was the Wildlings who tried to kill Jon? If I remember correct, there are now two skinchangers with the Wildlings (Varamyr and the one with the boar, I don't remember his name), and as Wick attempted to kill him he said 'it wasnt me', and Bowen Marsh was crying when he attacked him, and as stated people can try and fight off skinchangers and show resistance. I know that the big thing against this theory the fact they both said 'for the watch', however I think it's a possibility as Tormund seemed awful happy toward the end as if all his plans were in place.

Having said all this Jon won't be dead permanently, if at all. He's to central to the story and having read some of this forum I am inclined to believe he is almost certainly R+L=J, and therefore the third head of the dragon.

 

[Katrina Stark]

Hi DmNd!
Just one question, isn't Varamyr dead? How could he be possessing anyone? I find the idea that the brothers aren't acting of their own free will appealing on a personal level (I'd like them to be loyal to Jon and have some honour) but unlikely...

 

[DmNd]

Didn't he live on in a wolf? Not sure, as the prologue ends without closure. It just says 'She sees me'. But like I said I know it has flaws but as I was reading it just came to me. And I agree, I would hope they would be loyal. Also, the more I am reading this the more I'm leading towards Jon not being the real Jon, and he has warged into one of his dead bodies.

 

[Tywin]

As an afterthought, it's also possible that the sword is not really a sword at all but a metaphor for something else.
No idea what, but this comes from my suspicion that everyone in Westeros seems to misinterpret the Stark words. I take them as a warning (winter is coming...bringing with it the White Walkers). Though that itself is a discussion for another thread.

Also a quote from the Night's Watch oath:
"...I am the fire that burns against cold, the light that brings the dawn..."

One of our pet theories around here is that The Night's Watch itself is the sword and that Jon will use it to destroy the Others.

 

[Katrina Stark]

Didn't he live on in a wolf? Not sure, as the prologue ends without closure. It just says 'She sees me'. But like I said I know it has flaws but as I was reading it just came to me. And I agree, I would hope they would be loyal. Also, the more I am reading this the more I'm leading towards Jon not being the real Jon, and he has warged into one of his dead bodies.

I might be wrong, but in my mind, once a warg is relegated to one of his animals and his body dies, he loses his powers - like he is stuck in that one guise. I can't remember any evidence for this, though, so it might simply be in my head.

As for the dead bodies - do you think he warged before the attack, or during? The cold he feels might be the cold of a frozen body...

One of our pet theories around here is that The Night's Watch itself is the sword and that Jon will use it to destroy the Others.

I like this thought - a purely metaphorical sword. What would be the fire that forged it, then? The winter coming, the wars destroying the land?

 

[Needle]

As for the dead bodies - do you think he warged before the attack, or during? The cold he feels might be the cold of a frozen body...

He had to have warged before the attack otherwise Jon's body is still dead.

 

[Runic]

I like the theory of The Night's Watch being the sword.

Don't get me wrong, I really want Jon to survive, and there are lots of ways he can survive the attack. There doesn't seem to be a time in the last chapter for him to warg and/or go to Melisandre for a glamour put on a corpse. Except for something about making plans for a couple of hours, but then that would mean that the attack would have to be part of those plans?

Then I am reminded that there was a repeat chapter in two books with Jon's point of view, a more elaborate version of events was given in the second, perhaps in the next book we will see those missing couple of hours?

 

[Ursa major]

...but then that would mean that the attack would have to be part of those plans?

It very well might, but if so, I'm not sure Jon is in on it.

Regarding whether it is a part of the plans, I don't think the text rules this out. When Jon is attacked, his attackers are saying "For the Watch." This could support either case: that they're really attacking to stop Jon destroying the Watch, or they're doing so for some other reason that also keeps the Watch in existence. Similarly, Bowen may be crying because he thinks he's killing Jon, or he may be play acting, or he may doubt that Jon will survive, as the trick to Jon's survival is not in his hands and he may not believe in Jon's, or Mel's or both's powers to carry it off.

Regarding Jon's foreknowledge, the following passage alone would tend to rule that out:

When Wick Wittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. "Why?"

Then I am reminded that there was a repeat chapter in two books with Jon's point of view, a more elaborate version of events was given in the second, perhaps in the next book we will see those missing couple of hours?

We might, if Jon has survived. It may be in a Mel chapter.

Which leads to an unpleasant thought: we could have a Mel chapter desribing how it's all going to work: the warging, the corpses, the giant.... And then, towards the very end of the chapter, Mel wonders what to do now that the plan has failed. (Or only seemed, to Mel, to have failed, for those readers who really don't want Jon to be dead.)

 

[Katrina Stark]

Then I am reminded that there was a repeat chapter in two books with Jon's point of view, a more elaborate version of events was given in the second, perhaps in the next book we will see those missing couple of hours?

I don't remember this - in which book was this? Which scene? It would give us a precedent for omitted information even from a pov character (the big problem with most theories regarding Jon's survival IMO).

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think the chapter where Sam is sent away was told from Sam's perspective in AFFC, and then from Jon's in ADWD, which is when we got the detail about the babies being switched.

 

[Katrina Stark]

I've been thinking about something that ties in to our discussion about Azor Ahai and TPTWP. I find it a little strange that the prophecy about the hero that will destroy the Others was made and stored so very far away (my geography is a little spotty for ASOIF, but isn't Asshai like, beyond the Jade Sea, practically on the other side of the world?).

I wonder if there is any significance in that?

 

[Katrina Stark]

I think the chapter where Sam is sent away was told from Sam's perspective in AFFC, and then from Jon's in ADWD, which is when we got the detail about the babies being switched.

Oh, right. But not twice by the same pov, then?

Still - as mentioned, we might get a Melissandre chapter, where the ruse is explained. Crossing my fingers.