Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Timba]

I have since figured out how to take it off and so far even with the small tocuh screen key board ( sometimes I hit 2 letters instead of 1 due to it) I have not invented any new words or spellings. But ill take invented words over the wrong ones

Not to worry, Imp has mastered the odd keyboard approach himself so you will be in fine company.

 

[The Imp]

Not to worry, Imp has mastered the odd keyboard approach himself so you will be in fine company.

It's called mumbletyping, thank you very much

 

[winterfella]

My first post so go gently!

Jon states that he doesn't feel the last blow of the knife, just the cold.
This would suggest that he didn't change into ghost as earlier in the book when he said he was cold, he also said he was never cold when he was ghost. This is not to say that ghost didn't attack those attackers! I also suspect that Jon has now got more wildling allies than black brother enemies!
Just a theory.
Can't wait for next book. My brain is bursting!

 

[Keebs411]

Welcome i agree the support he has from so many of the wildings. i think that is deff going to play into things more too. They would never follow any of the other crows. It blows my mind how all but jon have lost site of the true purpose for the nights watch. Wildings were never the true enemy although while all the horrors and monsters of the nights slept and kept hidden the wildings kept the watch busy. They have a common enemy though and the watch needs numbers in regaurds to men. Where do the brothers want him to come up with that? They struggled to find men even in times of peace and now in time of war every banner and kingdom has taken wat is available for their battles. Reminds me of the infamoua term " trying to get blood from a turnip". Jon sees!! The rest of the brothers need to open their eyes!

 

[Timba]

I also wonder what role the giant will play in the continuation of that stabbing scene. I believe he knew Jon was someone he could trust and he was already clearly pissed off, I think that has to come into play somehow.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Strangely, I just read this scene tonight, and wondered exactly the same thing. The other thing I wondered - and I know I'm not in-depth afficiando - was that the brothers were doing it for the watch, and Jon had just said he'd break his vows. Were the wounds meant to be mortal, anyway? None are described as neccesarily mortal, if not too deep. Are they to stop him going to Winterfell? I know this is simplistic in the extreme but K.I.S.S.? Also, do we know what set Wun Wun off; I think that's a useful one to ask, what haven't we seen? Apologies if all covered before.

 

[Timba]

Hi Springs, interesting KISS theory although with that thought in mind why not whack him a good one and when he wakes up tell him he simply cannot go to Winterfell, stabbing seems a bit over the top if that is the goal, pretty easy to make a fatal mistake. Still, more food for thought and I appreciate your insight. Before we are done we will have postulated more ways to keep Jon alive than I can keep in my head.

Wun Wun was, I believe, set off by a nightwatch moron trying to sneak in to the wildling females but I have not checked this memory and it may be totally bogus.

 

[Swamp Fox]

Please forgive me. This is my first post. I tried reading through most of this thread, please forgive me if I've repeated anything already discussed.

But I really just want to discuss the "death" of Jon:

1. Mel and Jon are now working together. We just don't know it yet.

My reasoning is that this is a ploy by GRRM to release Jon from his vows. But not by resurrection!

I think Jon went into that last meeting drumming up support but also to flush out any dissent... The only problem is the giant. I don't think Jon or Mel anticipated that so Jon and Mel were caught unawares. However, Mel has anticipated an attack and so has Jon. The healing powers of the red priests are subject to discuss. But obviously, if you look at the reanimation derric and Victarion's hand, you can see the possibilities. I think Jon can warg into an animal "Ghost" and effectively rest until Mel heals a few stab wounds. Jon re-enters his body and is re-born.

Lastly, The chaos that must ensue after Jon is stabbed must be catastrophic for the nights watch. The giant goes berserk. The wildlings go berserk, and the queens men jump in for fun. The nights watch is split in two halves. Those for Jon and those who agree with stabbing Jon. The two halves of the watch killing each other. When The mini battle is settled Jon wargs back into his body. Released from his vows, because there is but a remnant of the watch left.

Had to get started somewhere. Someone shoot me down quick!

 

[viZion]

Please forgive me. This is my first post. I tried reading through most of this thread, please forgive me if I've repeated anything already discussed.

But I really just want to discuss the "death" of Jon:

1. Mel and Jon are now working together. We just don't know it yet.

My reasoning is that this is a ploy by GRRM to release Jon from his vows. But not by resurrection!

I think Jon went into that last meeting drumming up support but also to flush out any dissent... The only problem is the giant. I don't think Jon or Mel anticipated that so Jon and Mel were caught unawares. However, Mel has anticipated an attack and so has Jon. The healing powers of the red priests are subject to discuss. But obviously, if you look at the reanimation derric and Victarion's hand, you can see the possibilities. I think Jon can warg into an animal "Ghost" and effectively rest until Mel heals a few stab wounds. Jon re-enters his body and is re-born.

I'd take this as a result. Anything to avoid a resurrection because that would be a total cop out on GRRM's part and I expect better from him. I've always said the simplest outcome is that none of those wounds he took were fatal and he survives. Tyrion has survived much worse injuries and there are stories all the time of people in real life surviving multiple stabbings and even multiple gunshot wounds. There definitely doesn't need to be a resurrection involved in order for Jon to be reborn. I think the Red Priest Resurrection ability was a plot device that's been used already and has served its purpose and should be retired gracefully for the rest of the series.

 

[Ursa major]

Welcome to the Chrons, Swamp Fox.

While some of us differ as to where Jon has warged, I don't think many would be upset if Jon's body survived by natural means rather than supernatural ones.

 

[Needle]

Please forgive me. This is my first post. I tried reading through most of this thread, please forgive me if I've repeated anything already discussed.

But I really just want to discuss the "death" of Jon:

1. Mel and Jon are now working together. We just don't know it yet.

My reasoning is that this is a ploy by GRRM to release Jon from his vows. But not by resurrection!

I think Jon went into that last meeting drumming up support but also to flush out any dissent... The only problem is the giant. I don't think Jon or Mel anticipated that so Jon and Mel were caught unawares. However, Mel has anticipated an attack and so has Jon. The healing powers of the red priests are subject to discuss. But obviously, if you look at the reanimation derric and Victarion's hand, you can see the possibilities. I think Jon can warg into an animal "Ghost" and effectively rest until Mel heals a few stab wounds. Jon re-enters his body and is re-born.

Lastly, The chaos that must ensue after Jon is stabbed must be catastrophic for the nights watch. The giant goes berserk. The wildlings go berserk, and the queens men jump in for fun. The nights watch is split in two halves. Those for Jon and those who agree with stabbing Jon. The two halves of the watch killing each other. When The mini battle is settled Jon wargs back into his body. Released from his vows, because there is but a remnant of the watch left.

Had to get started somewhere. Someone shoot me down quick!

I'd take this as a result. Anything to avoid a resurrection because that would be a total cop out on GRRM's part and I expect better from him. I've always said the simplest outcome is that none of those wounds he took were fatal and he survives. Tyrion has survived much worse injuries and there are stories all the time of people in real life surviving multiple stabbings and even multiple gunshot wounds. There definitely doesn't need to be a resurrection involved in order for Jon to be reborn. I think the Red Priest Resurrection ability was a plot device that's been used already and has served its purpose and should be retired gracefully for the rest of the series.

Welcome to the Chrons, Swamp Fox.

While some of us differ as to where Jon has warged, I don't think many would be upset if Jon's body survived by natural means rather than supernatural ones.

Welcome Swamp Fox!

As Ursa and viZion point out it is entirely possible that Jon will simply survive his injuries. I however do not think there is time for this. Healing takes time, and leaves the person very vulnerable while they do it, Jon can afford neither of these.

I am also in total agreement with viZ on the no more resurrection thing! One more time would be doing it to death (and other reasons as well) Plus I don't like nor trust that Rhallor! He is up to something and I suspect it's not good!

I definitely think Jon and Mel did it to draw out those against Jon.

Giving you the link here to my own theory on what really happened. As we are seeing more and more magic enter the world of Ice and Fire, I believe GRRM is about to throw it all at us! I take full credit or blame for the following crackpotism! Enjoy! http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/1528838-post223.html

 

[Swamp Fox]

Thanks for the welcome, and thanks for the input! I agree with all of your statements for the most part. Thanks Needle for the link.

IF Jon is dead, what would be the implications?

 

[Needle]

I may be overstating here but I don't think I am, I would foresee utter chaos if Jon is really dead! The Watch and the Wildlings are the only ones who know the Others exist. The rest of the kingdom thinks them myths.

The Watch alone is much too small to even slow the Others down. Without Jon the wildlings will run and scatter, possibly killing off the remains of the Watch before they do! No one else in the kingdom will even know they are coming (the wildling or the others) until they are cutting their heads off!

 

[The Imp]

I think that there is zero chance that Jon is gone from the story. IMO it's just a matter of how Jon's character goes forward. Possibilities include

Jon warging into Ghost and his body dying. We know from the Varamyr chapter though that if that happens, Jon will ultimately "disappear". Someone else, perhaps Sansa, could warg into Ghost, but it still would mean the end of Jon.

Jon could be gravely, but not mortally, wounded. This scenario is problematic because of the chaos that must ensue after Bowen Marsh stabs him, and what would happen to his body, who would bring it to safety, etc.

Jon could die and be resurrected by Melisandr. Not impossible, and certainly the groundwork has been laid for this happening. it would also satisfy some people thinking that this event would satisfy the Azor Ahai reborn prophecy, although I believe that the prophecy doesn't mean dying and coming back but rather, someone who was born after the original AA died who will become AA, no death required.

Jon wargs into Wun Wun. I don't think that would work out too well. Wun Wun trying to fight off Jon's invasion might actually bring down the Wall

The most likely scenario IMO is the one Needle fine tuned and finished- The bodies in the ice cells were there for Jon to "practice" with. Dead bodies won't fight off a warging invader. The body that Jon is now inhabiting is glamoured by Melisandre to LOOK like Jon. The body that Jon is controlling gets stabbed to "death" by Bowen Marsh, but Jon's actual body is safe (somewhere, maybe in the ice cell, hence "only the cold"). Jon is alive, unharmed, and free to do whatever.

 

[Young stormlord]

Jon is not dead. We know how a skinchanger dies thanks to prologue. Jon doesn't have the same "feelings" as Varamyr.

Which leads me to the moment of Fridge Horror: If every skinchanger/warg feels the same things while dying, does that mean that Rob actually saw Arya with the Hound outside the castle during his last moments?

 

[Katrina Stark]

I like Needle's theory as well - it fits nicely with my hopes that Jon is alive, healthy, and ready to keep on fighting, while not relying on any sort of icky resurrection (while the background is there is the story, the results are not up to par, IMO).

The only reason I haven't jumped headfirst in defending it is one small sentence in the last Jon chapter, just before he died. In it, he thinks he should go talk to Melissandre, after talking to the Queen, as he exits the hall. If they were plotting together, why would he think that? He would probably be with Melissandre right at that moment!

 

[Eulalia]

Just re-read a Jon Snow chapter (when the new vows are taken). I didn't do a count, but there is mention of Wildling corpses before the weirwood, and how they might be useful to Jon, over and over.

 

[Tywin]

Jon is not dead. We know how a skinchanger dies thanks to prologue. Jon doesn't have the same "feelings" as Varamyr.

Which leads me to the moment of Fridge Horror: If every skinchanger/warg feels the same things while dying, does that mean that Rob actually saw Arya with the Hound outside the castle during his last moments?

Hmmm, you just sparked an idea in the crazy crackpot area of my head... Could Robb have warged into someone or something else during the Red Wedding?

 

[Grunkins]

Jon as Wun Wun, oh my.

While I like Needle's glamourJon theory I still can't think GRRM would do that to us (give us a POV of the event and not mention it). I can't abide an unJon theory, so I'm ruling out a Mel resurrection. And Jon is definitely not dead and gone from the series.

So that leaves me with either Jon mundanely surviving his injuries (boring), or a last second warg into ghost (unlikely with him feeling only the cold, though with the prologue in mind this seems reasonable), Jon opening up new vistas in warging and warging into a corpse in the ice cells (this could be, but . . . well, I'm not sure of my issue here, but I think I have one), or Jon warging into some poor sot outside somewhere (not entirely satisfying, but who knows?).

Or the Wun Wun option.

 

[Runic]

Permission to go slightly off topic, granted, good!

I believe that the whole Thoros of Myr Beric/Catelyn resurrection story line is there for a purpose, but I don't think that it is anything too much to do with Jon.

If you think about it logically, magic is all but dead at the time, Thoros isn't exactly the most devout of Red Priests, so the fact that he resurrects Beric, who on their own admission were performing The (true) King's work via The Hand (Ned), is a pretty big thing at that point in the saga. Thoros resurrects Beric several times because he can (a la so many guitarist that learn a new riff). When Beric says seven times is far too many, it is Beric that ends his own mortal suffering by bringing Catelyn (come get her Littlefinger!) back.
Resurrection and length of dead (check out The Princess Bride for different types of dead) gives different results.
Now back to the topic, If Mel gets blood pumping in a Ice Cell Corpse (I.C.C) which it would have to be for the blood to come from the wound to "Jon"'s neck, how much residue of the person would be left? Cat was dead for about 3 days which was why her vocal cords never worked properly as they weren't healed in the Resurrect process - too long dead (plus her water retention is way through the roof).

There is another way of resurrection which is hinted at.....The Mountain is back, via the weird science of lab work, but even that isn't going to be viable for Jon at The Wall.

I still think that The Wall is involved, it has magical doorways and all sorts of other things we don't know about available for those who have taken the vows, and Jon hasn't technically broken his vows, has he? he hasn't fathered any children or married.