Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Tywin]

Dear Runic,

Post more. That was a fun read.

-Tywin

 

[Runic]

Much appreciated Tywin!

 

[Runic]

Its just that the ICC's and resurrection are bandied around on this thread so much with so much disdain for the latter. Are we just looking at one of these ?

 

[viZion]

Its just that the ICC's and resurrection are bandied around on this thread so much with so much disdain for the latter. Are we just looking at one of these ?

Well, no, because Thoros' resurrection ability was a pretty significant part of the story. It wasn't like any reader thought, "Well, Catelyn coming back to life doesn't seem so important" and then would be surprised that it's important later on when the same ability is used to resurrect Jon. It's already been a huge part of the story.

I don't believe there was any foreshadowing related to Jon at all regarding Thoros' resurrection ability. If anything the foreshadowing occurs when he resurrects Beric. The foreshadowing being the resurrection of Catelyn and that's where it ends. I believe that resurrection has served its purpose with Catelyn and that GRRM should find another way to "save" Jon. Otherwise, as I've said before, every character with a Red Priest nearby is basically invincible and that would suck a lot of suspense out of the series. I don't want to feel like my favorite characters (or any characters) are generally safe from harm. I could read just about any other fantasy series if I wanted to feel that way.

I also don't think every Red Priest has the same powers. Or rather, their powers don't manifest in the same way. Thoros is really good at resurrecting people. Mel is really good at reading the flames giving birth to shadows. The one with Victarion is really good and healing diseased hands. I.e. I don't think there's some Resurrecton 101 class that they all attend in training. Perhaps their god grants the gifts he sees fit to who he sees fit.

Edit: Just realized you could be applying Chekhov's Gun to the ice corpses and not resurrection. Sorry. Viewed that way it could work. But what I've written above about resurrection and Red Priest abilities still applies.

 

[Young stormlord]

Thoros's resurrection skills are not a secret: there one of the first skills Red priests learn. It is called the last kiss and Lord Beric was just a first person that it worked on. (accidentally matching with the time Dany hatched her dragons). As I pointed out before, so far those powers worked only on red-headed people (Beric and Cat) which proves the wildling saying "Kissed by fire=lucky!".

So, my points are:

1. Every priest has the same resurrection powers/learned the same old technique.
2. So far they only work on redheaded people. Jon is clearly not a redhead.
3. Those old techniques started working again with dragons' return into the world. (see pyromancer's spell for their wildfire)

 

[Rufio]

There is another way of resurrection which is hinted at.....The Mountain is back, via the weird science of lab work, but even that isn't going to be viable for Jon at The Wall.

I still think that The Wall is involved, it has magical doorways and all sorts of other things we don't know about available for those who have taken the vows, and Jon hasn't technically broken his vows, has he? he hasn't fathered any children or married.

Good point about The Wall, Runic. Melisandre mentions it as a magical place numerous times too, and there is another dead man walking that we know, who is heavily implied to be a (former) man of the Night's Watch - Coldhands. He seems to be essentially a wight but one that has retained his mind - maybe something to do with The Wall, maybe something to do with warging? Who knows.

Thoros's resurrection skills are not a secret: there one of the first skills Red priests learn. It is called the last kiss and Lord Beric was just a first person that it worked on. (accidentally matching with the time Dany hatched her dragons). As I pointed out before, so far those powers worked only on red-headed people (Beric and Cat) which proves the wildling saying "Kissed by fire=lucky!".

So, my points are:

1. Every priest has the same resurrection powers/learned the same old technique.
2. So far they only work on redheaded people. Jon is clearly not a redhead.
3. Those old techniques started working again with dragons' return into the world. (see pyromancer's spell for their wildfire)

Indeed. The way I read it, at least, this seemed to be a funeral rite of the Red Priests religion, that in the case of Thoros and Beric for some reason resurrected the latter. We know that Thoros repeated the trick, but we don't know if it works on anyone else, or for any Red Priest. If it did presumably there would be undead people springing up all over Essos. If that's happening we haven't heard about it... I don't think it's a skill of Thoros' or a one off chance with him/Beric but I it must only work in certain circumstances, what they may be is open to speculation - like you say it's only worked on two redheads so far (though with Cat it's not exactly the same since Beric 'passed on the flame' rather than Thoros performing the rite and resurrecting her) unresolved business like ghosts, or being chosen by the Lord Of Light for some purpose, and so on.

I don't think Jon will be brought back by the same means as Beric and Cat, if for no other reason than that it wouldn't be the most dramatic resolution. I can see where ViZion is coming from in that too many resurrections can ruin a story, reducing death to an inconvenience or a cheap plot twist.

Jon simply surviving the attack, even aided by magic (smoking wounds), would also feel like a bit of a cop-out to me.

The glamoured and warged corpse theory is a lot of fun and I it is well argued enough that I consider it possible But I think it relies far too much on a lot of things happening 'off page' and not really being hinted at in the characters thoughts or actions. It would feel like a bit of a cheat. The ice cell bodies aren't just there for no reason, I think they'll be some part of explaining the nature of wights.

My theory (guess) is that somehow a combination of all the things we know will bring Jon back. We've seen ice undead, and fire undead. Jon is ice and fire combined through his parents (probably). We also know the minds of wargs carry on in their beasts when their bodies die*. I'm not sure how it will happen but all these things are significant for Jon.

*On a bit of a side note wargs, wierwoods, The Old Gods and all that seem to be associated with the ice more than the fire but I have a feeling they might be their own thing distinct from both.

 

[Runic]

viZion, yes I was applying Chekov's Gun to the I.C.C's

Rufio, to me it seems pretty obvious that Coldhands is Uncle Benjen Stark, his face was always covered to avoid upsetting Bran (and to make the eventual reveal more shocking for Jon, after all how much of Jon's drive is made up of wanting to find his Uncle? He must secretly want to find him at Hardhome).

Don't forget as well, Rufio, that now Bran is plugged into the World Wide Root, he is able to see forward and back in time (see Quantum Leap for time travelling string theory) as well as warg at will (distance no penalty and able to "take 20" even under combat conditions) into pretty much anything, and as I have said before into Mormont's Raven, unless that is Mormont himself?

Perhaps the whole scene is Bran saying, look this is what is going to happen...? After all the 3 eyed crow was able to reach Bran's dreams all the way south of The Wall into Winterfell.

So much food for thought, but as usual the proof of the pudding is in the eating! Was hoping that now it is a major TV series GRRM would be writing a bit quicker!

 

[pedro_1013]

Hi everyone, this is my first post.

My thoughts about Jon's "Death":

1. The glamoured from Needle - Nice one, but i don't thinks so. The final thoughts of Jon were:
"Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the
wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end."
Whispering "Ghost" and "Stick them with the pointy end", this only makes sense if he really think he's dying. This word are too profound and emotional, not something he would say if he using a death body and free from death.
But the chapter has some strange things, the speech, the decision to go after Ramsay (for what? he don't have "Arya" anymore.)

2. He dies and is resurrected by Melisandre:
Martin already used this with Catelyn, i don't think he would do it again. Bad cliché, poor writing.

3. He is saved by someone and heals (with or without magic):
I'm a bit romantic and i think there's something between Jon and Val (Ghost like her). So Val could get to Jon and with the help of Wun Wun take him to safety (don't know if Val has some healing powers). Or is Melisandre to save him. When it's said "He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …", the cold could mean that the others are coming (the winter arrived and the other with it).

4. Jon actually dies:
Hope not
It's a waste, Jon is one the few truly good guys and is the character with most potential. He can become
Azor Ahai, be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, the King of the North (Robb made him is successor).
But because of all that and for him to be all alone without family, friends or Ghost, to die alone and betrayed by his companions to save the Watch (but by doing so will destroy the watch). It's a very sad death, but there is some poetry in it, in Jon last words and thoughts.

 

[Timba]

Hi everyone, this is my first post.

My thoughts about Jon's "Death":

1. The glamoured from Needle - Nice one, but i don't thinks so. The final thoughts of Jon were:
"Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the
wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end."
Whispering "Ghost" and "Stick them with the pointy end", this only makes sense if he really think he's dying. This word are too profound and emotional, not something he would say if he using a death body and free from death.
But the chapter has some strange things, the speech, the decision to go after Ramsay (for what? he don't have "Arya" anymore.)

2. He dies and is resurrected by Melisandre:
Martin already used this with Catelyn, i don't think he would do it again. Bad cliché, poor writing.

3. He is saved by someone and heals (with or without magic):
I'm a bit romantic and i think there's something between Jon and Val (Ghost like her). So Val could get to Jon and with the help of Wun Wun take him to safety (don't know if Val has some healing powers). Or is Melisandre to save him. When it's said "He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …", the cold could mean that the others are coming (the winter arrived and the other with it).

4. Jon actually dies:
Hope not
It's a waste, Jon is one the few truly good guys and is the character with most potential. He can become
Azor Ahai, be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, the King of the North (Robb made him is successor).
But because of all that and for him to be all alone without family, friends or Ghost, to die alone and betrayed by his companions to save the Watch (but by doing so will destroy the watch). It's a very sad death, but there is some poetry in it, in Jon last words and thoughts.

Hi Pedro, welcome.

Your third and fourth points sum up my thoughts and feelings very nicely. I am hoping for #3.

 

[The Imp]

Hi everyone, this is my first post.

My thoughts about Jon's "Death":

1. The glamoured from Needle - Nice one, but i don't thinks so. The final thoughts of Jon were:
"Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the
wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end."
Whispering "Ghost" and "Stick them with the pointy end", this only makes sense if he really think he's dying. This word are too profound and emotional, not something he would say if he using a death body and free from death.
But the chapter has some strange things, the speech, the decision to go after Ramsay (for what? he don't have "Arya" anymore.)

2. He dies and is resurrected by Melisandre:
Martin already used this with Catelyn, i don't think he would do it again. Bad cliché, poor writing.

3. He is saved by someone and heals (with or without magic):
I'm a bit romantic and i think there's something between Jon and Val (Ghost like her). So Val could get to Jon and with the help of Wun Wun take him to safety (don't know if Val has some healing powers). Or is Melisandre to save him. When it's said "He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold …", the cold could mean that the others are coming (the winter arrived and the other with it).

4. Jon actually dies:
Hope not
It's a waste, Jon is one the few truly good guys and is the character with most potential. He can become
Azor Ahai, be Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, the King of the North (Robb made him is successor).
But because of all that and for him to be all alone without family, friends or Ghost, to die alone and betrayed by his companions to save the Watch (but by doing so will destroy the watch). It's a very sad death, but there is some poetry in it, in Jon last words and thoughts.

Welcome, Pedro

IMO, GRRM didn't spend 5 books developing Jon's character to just ax him in this book. He's already proven that he's capable of killing any character, and that's actually the beauty of this, because we KNOW he has killed Robb, Cat, Ned, Joffrey, Drogo, Kevan, Tywin, Quentyn, et al, so we can't be sure that jon isn't really dead. He could have been rescued by men loyal to him, perhaps aided by Wun Wun, but that would be cheesy. I think the glamour/warging into the dead body solution is the most elegant and has been totally set up by major elements in the sotry to date-

Melisandre asking to see AA but only seeing Snow

Mance being glamoured to look like Rattleshirt

Rattleshirt being glamoured to look like Mance

Mel contstantly trying to warn Jon of danger

Learning in the varamyr chapter that a warg isn't a warg anymore if their body dies, and that if they warg into an animal their personality eventually disappears.

The letter, which becomes meaningless is jon is dead.

I'm taking door number two Monty

 

[Mesanna]

IMO, GRRM didn't spend 5 books developing Jon's character to just ax him in this book. He's already proven that he's capable of killing any character, and that's actually the beauty of this, because we KNOW he has killed Robb, Cat, Ned, Joffrey, Drogo, Kevan, Tywin, Quentyn, et al, so we can't be sure that jon isn't really dead.

To play Devil's Advocate here, it's true that GRRM has spent several books building up Jon's character, but that still doesn't exclude him from being killed off. A Game of Thrones spent a great deal of time building up Eddard's character, only to have him die at the end. Of course, as the series developed, we see how Ned's death was necessary to set in motion events that shaped the series. So who is to say that Jon's death isn't necessary to set up events in the final two books? We have Mel as a POV character, so events at the Wall can be 'reported' by her now. Maybe GRRM needs the Night's Watch to be in turmoil and fighting amongst themselves just as The Others attack so that they can be easily overwhelmed?

Personally, I don't think Jon's dead, but I also don't believe it's impossible that he's dead. And despite him being a major character since the beginning, I also think killing him off is exactly the kind of thing that GRRM would do!

 

[The Imp]

To play Devil's Advocate here, it's true that GRRM has spent several books building up Jon's character, but that still doesn't exclude him from being killed off. A Game of Thrones spent a great deal of time building up Eddard's character, only to have him die at the end. Of course, as the series developed, we see how Ned's death was necessary to set in motion events that shaped the series. So who is to say that Jon's death isn't necessary to set up events in the final two books? We have Mel as a POV character, so events at the Wall can be 'reported' by her now. Maybe GRRM needs the Night's Watch to be in turmoil and fighting amongst themselves just as The Others attack so that they can be easily overwhelmed?

Personally, I don't think Jon's dead, but I also don't believe it's impossible that he's dead. And despite him being a major character since the beginning, I also think killing him off is exactly the kind of thing that GRRM would do!

It's not impossible that he's dead, but I think it's highly unlikely. Ned died at what, page 600 or so of aGot? if Jon is dead GRRM will have spent close to 5,000 pages for what? To prove he can kill off another major character?

Too much of tyhe sory hinges on Jon for him to be dead IMO.

 

[Ursa major]

If we all go around stating that Jon is alive and, indeed, cannot be allowed to die, we'll be tempting more than fate: we'll be tempting GRRM.

 

[Boaz]

pedro, Welcome. You know I'd bet that my first post was also in a thread about Jon Snow. Whether he's dead or alive, I don't know. I can envision GRRM taking the story in any of the directions mentioned. Let me argue this from a stylistic point of view.

Off the top of my head, GRRM has written chapters from twenty-four points of view. How many of these characters had chapters ending in mortal danger? And how many times did we discover later that the character survived to continue his/her POV? I don't know, but cliffhangers and mini-cliffhangers are a trademark of this series. Jon, himself has been in mortal danger at the end of his POVs from wights, wildlings, Styr, more wildlings, Janos, and even more wildlings. He's still alive, as far as I know, up to the end of ADWD.

Of the twenty-four POV characters, twenty-one are still active. Arys, Eddard, and Quentyn are dead, while Catelyn is returned from the dead. She has not regained her POV, but the possibility is there. And of those twenty-four, only Catelyn and Quentyn died in their own POV... and mayhaps Brienne. We'll see about Brienne. GRRM's also added five prologue chapters and two epilogue chapters. All of these POVs are limited to one chapter because their POV characters all die. In rough chronological order, they are Gared, Cressen, Chett, Merrett, Pate, Varamyr, and Kevan. GRRM can kill a character in his own POV, but it would be unprecendented for him to kill off a character as important as Jon in his own POV.

My second argument revolves around the name of the series... A Song of Ice and Fire. Since none of the main characters, nor the POV characters seem to be musically inclined, except for Mance, Jaime and Tyrion singing a few lines, I'm guessing the title is not about a minstrel and his song. No, the title is about the story of Ice and Fire. Eddard's family sword was named Ice, but it was never featured prominently and it is now destroyed. No, I think we all agree that Ice and Fire refers to both the coming Targaryen monarch and the impending supernatural confrontation between Azor Ahai reborn and The Other. In both the mystical battle and the renewed Targaryen monarchy, most of us figure that Jon could play a pivotal role.

From GRRM's methodology, I don't see Jon dying. But then again, I thought Eddard would live until Ilyn took his head off.

 

[Ursa major]

But then again, I thought Eddard would live until Ilyn took his head off.

But you were right: Eddard did live until Ilyn took his head off.

 

[viZion]

Pedro: Lately, I've become a fan of the third theory you listed (the cold Jon feels is an Others attack). Here's another thread that discusses it that didn't gain much traction around here:

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/535864-only-the-cold-possible-adwd-spoilers.html

Too bad, too, because I think it's an excellent theory and much simpler than Needle's theory (which is also excellent). I like simpler solutions best.

No matter how Jon survives I just hope it's not by resurrection.

Boaz: Pretty much every Tyrion chapter ends with him in mortal danger or having been maimed in some way .

 

[Boaz]

Big Bear, I remember seeing a tabloid headline on the internet (maybe photoshopped) that declared, NEW EVIDENCE: PRINCESS DIANA WAS ALIVE HOURS BEFORE HER DEATH!

viZ, Tyrion is a resilient imp. By the look of your avatar, I'd guess you are too.

 

[pedro_1013]

pedro, Welcome. You know I'd bet that my first post was also in a thread about Jon Snow. Whether he's dead or alive, I don't know.

That last Jon's chapter was i bit of a shock for me, i lost the count of how many times i've read that final page. So i search the web for it and found this forum. I learned a lot in here, there's so much details that i hadn't notice and theories i never thought, like Jon being The Lyanna and Rhaegar son. About Jon being their is ok by me, but Jon riding a dragon that's weird, the dragon's don't fit in Jon's personality and there's ghost, a dragon and a wolf seems too incompatible. But it would be fun to see ghost riding a dragon

Hi Pedro, welcome. Your third and fourth points sum up my thoughts and feelings very nicely. I am hoping for #3.

Me too, but Martin has to put a convincing storyline or it could get lame. There's too many loose ends in this last chapter.

Pedro: Lately, I've become a fan of the third theory you listed (the cold Jon feels is an Others attack). Here's another thread that discusses it that didn't gain much traction around here:

Too bad, too, because I think it's an excellent theory and much simpler than Needle's theory (which is also excellent). I like simpler solutions best.

No matter how Jon survives I just hope it's not by resurrection.

Boaz: Pretty much every Tyrion chapter ends with him in mortal danger or having been maimed in some way .

The problem i see with the others attacking is that it may be too soon. Tyrion was in mortal danger many times, but i think Jon's situation is a lot worse.

 

[WingedDirewolf]

Hello all, You've got me with all the theories and conspiracies. For the record I hope Jon isnt Dead.

Just something to add regarding the fact that Marsh is crying when he stabs Jon. For me this suggest that it is clearly an act that he is struggling to do. Wouldn't it be fitting with Jon's character that he has asked his brothers to do this act? Jon may understand that he NEEDS to die to be freed from his obligation to the wall. Who knows, Mel may even be in on it as it doesnt state (to my mind) that he hasn't headed Mel's warnings and sought her after receiving Roose's letter knowing that he will need her to revive his body. For me he has finally decided to do what he has wanted to do since Ned's beheading and then later the red wedding, the letter was the 3rd strike.

This would also allow the paths of Dany and Jon to finally cross which is what myself personally saw the story eventually was heading towards. it would be good to see Jon be the head of one of the dragons which I think was hinted in the winged wolf dream/Vision.

Apologies if this has already been discussed and shot down. I've just started my second read though to pay particular attention to the prophesies and the many thing that i missed the first time around which I am sure is a lot.

A little off topic but does anyone have any ideas where Arya's story is heading? if she becomes one of the faceless, what then?

 

[firstfist]

Finally got through my reread of previous books, and toped it off with the Dance. Haven't looked at this thread in quite some time, but as Jon was/is one of my favorites I'm going to go back and check out some of the thoughts contained. Very possible I am about to suggest or ask something that has been written in here already. Don't have much time right now, so this is going to hopefully be a bit short. Just felt I needed to discuss/share a tad with others in the know.

I've got to admit. Jon's last chapter was a rough one for me. Took me a few days to pick the book back up and finish the last couple chapters.

Seems to me that Jon is now Ghost. Will we get a 100% dire wolf POV in the next book?
Is Mel going to revive Jon? Seems like the R'holor (think spelling is off) priests can do that, unless it was just Thoros for some reason.
If Jon is occupying Ghost when his body is resurrected what would happen? Would zombie Jon be like Beric and Cat and have some resemblance of before? or would we see some new abomination of a completely soulless Jon zombie controlled by Jonghost?