Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

Hello all, You've got me with all the theories and conspiracies. For the record I hope Jon isnt Dead.

Just something to add regarding the fact that Marsh is crying when he stabs Jon. For me this suggest that it is clearly an act that he is struggling to do. Wouldn't it be fitting with Jon's character that he has asked his brothers to do this act? Jon may understand that he NEEDS to die to be freed from his obligation to the wall. Who knows, Mel may even be in on it as it doesnt state (to my mind) that he hasn't headed Mel's warnings and sought her after receiving Roose's letter knowing that he will need her to revive his body. For me he has finally decided to do what he has wanted to do since Ned's beheading and then later the red wedding, the letter was the 3rd strike.

This would also allow the paths of Dany and Jon to finally cross which is what myself personally saw the story eventually was heading towards. it would be good to see Jon be the head of one of the dragons which I think was hinted in the winged wolf dream/Vision.

Apologies if this has already been discussed and shot down. I've just started my second read though to pay particular attention to the prophesies and the many thing that i missed the first time around which I am sure is a lot.

A little off topic but does anyone have any ideas where Arya's story is heading? if she becomes one of the faceless, what then?


I also see Marsh's tears as a sign of something behind the scenes going on with him and this act. What it is? I don't know. My thought was that he was warged and that causes the host body fear/panic which could result in tears. But it could be your idea as well. What I don't see is what good would it do for Jon to leave his position at the Wall now- with things just heating up. A very frustrating place to leave us hanging. I don't believe he's dead... but not really happy with the zombie Jon theory either.
 
I also see Marsh's tears as a sign of something behind the scenes going on with him and this act. What it is? I don't know. My thought was that he was warged and that causes the host body fear/panic which could result in tears. But it could be your idea as well. What I don't see is what good would it do for Jon to leave his position at the Wall now- with things just heating up. A very frustrating place to leave us hanging. I don't believe he's dead... but not really happy with the zombie Jon theory either.
I think it's been mentioned before- the tears from marsh and smake coming from Jon's wound MAY help fullfill the "born amidst smoke and salt" part of the AA prophecy.
 
I havent read all 46 pages of this but has the idea been discussed of Jon coming back like "cold hands"? I mean what was cold hands? For that matter what is Robert Strong? What is up with Brieene is she resurrected and now taking Jamie to Cat for the same treatment. I was led to believe that all of Cat's crew is now resurrected dead. Maybe I just didnt understand that whole part in SOS. I think GRRM has still got a lot of random cards up his sleeve ready to play.
 
Re: Jon Snow

Hi everybody....me again, resurrected from "the dead" and catching up on all the Jon Theories. :D

I think Ayra will be the most powerful of the "mobile" Stark. She's already warging, and I think will definitely be reunited with Nymeria at some point. I don't think Bran is leaving that cavern. Sansa\s wolf is gone, so i wonder about her ability to warg at all. Jon is only half Stark. I also see Arya as having more of a chance of surviving than anyone other than Bran. if one of the heads is a Stark, it COULD be Arya.
Just had to point out (not sure if anyone else did already as I'm still reading the thread)....all the Stark kids are "half stark". Their mother is / was a Tully. :p
 
Still slogging through what I've missed of this thread, almost there!
I'd take this as a result. Anything to avoid a resurrection because that would be a total cop out on GRRM's part and I expect better from him. I've always said the simplest outcome is that none of those wounds he took were fatal and he survives. Tyrion has survived much worse injuries and there are stories all the time of people in real life surviving multiple stabbings and even multiple gunshot wounds. There definitely doesn't need to be a resurrection involved in order for Jon to be reborn. I think the Red Priest Resurrection ability was a plot device that's been used already and has served its purpose and should be retired gracefully for the rest of the series.
Just wanted to chime in on the issue of Jon surviving his wounds as a KISS theory.

I'm still a big fan of Needle's theory, but I do understand the critique that it's a bit "involved". I think most of us agree that a reanimated Jon does not work on multiple levels, so that leaves us with only two options

1) Jon is not dead because Jon is not Jon (Needle's theory)....he walked into the attack in a body other than his own.

2) He walked into the attack in his own skin, got gravely injured, but makes it.

I'm not counting Dead Jon because I quite simply refuse to believe it's true. :p

So with those options....

There is discussion here wondering if his wounds are really all that serious. I think the passage implies that they are serious (the first wound it states that he "felt the hilt", which tells me the knife went in all the way).

So I do think the wounds are quite serious. But I don't think they're unsurvivable. As you noted, Viz, people survive grievous injury all the time....both in GRRM's world and in ours. I have a friend who used to be a bouncer in a bar, and he was attacked by a patron one night who was amped up on meth and stabbed him 17 times. Now he spent quite a lot of time in the hospital and underwent some surgery, and this was in 2002 with the advantages of modern medicine at his disposal....but he *did* survive 17 stab wounds.

To further bolster this idea, Tyrion's very grave injuries certainly left him disfigured and further disabled, but nonetheless alive. Same with Bran's. How long was Bran in that coma? Hard to say because the timelines aren't clear, but it seemed to be a month at least. He certainly didn't take a cat nap (no pun intended).

So one way or another I firmly believe Jon is alive. I also now truly believe that he is AA and that his "death" was necessary (one way or another he has to depart his body and return to it) in order for him to be "reborn".

You can say that he "leaves his body" because he has grievous but survivable wounds, and has one of those classic "out of body / moving towards the light" experiences we hear people talk about when they die on the operating table and then come back.

But we also know that Jon is a warg, a lot of time in both AFFC & ADWD was devoted to explaining how warging works and establishing that Stark kids have a natural gift for it. And it seems pretty clear to me that Jon is no ordinary mortal. He seems to have that extraordinary quality that Dany has, that "little bit more".

So that brings me back to Needle's theory as the most likely explanation that incorporates all the things we "know" to be true about Jon.

As much as I prefer KISS theories.....GRRM is not really a KISS kind of author.

It's been 7 months since I first read Needle's theory...and to me it's still the most plausible, even though the explanation may look outrageously complex on the surface.
 
Hmmm, you just sparked an idea in the crazy crackpot area of my head... Could Robb have warged into someone or something else during the Red Wedding?
OH MY GOD! :eek:

This is why I've missed this forum. I'm so easily swayed by all these crackpot theories.

As much as I LOVE that idea......that Robb is somehow hiding out in someone or something and waiting to rejoin Jon......mostly because the grisly manner of his death still deeply disturbs me....I think it would be a pretty big "cheat" for GRRM to do this. The most likely culprit for him to warg into would be his wolf and we all know Grey Wind didn't survive TRW either.

Dunno.....I like it, I just don't think it works.
 
To play Devil's Advocate here, it's true that GRRM has spent several books building up Jon's character, but that still doesn't exclude him from being killed off. A Game of Thrones spent a great deal of time building up Eddard's character, only to have him die at the end. Of course, as the series developed, we see how Ned's death was necessary to set in motion events that shaped the series. So who is to say that Jon's death isn't necessary to set up events in the final two books? We have Mel as a POV character, so events at the Wall can be 'reported' by her now. Maybe GRRM needs the Night's Watch to be in turmoil and fighting amongst themselves just as The Others attack so that they can be easily overwhelmed?

Personally, I don't think Jon's dead, but I also don't believe it's impossible that he's dead. And despite him being a major character since the beginning, I also think killing him off is exactly the kind of thing that GRRM would do!
Not to split hairs or anything but.....well here we go!

Rereading AGOT I actually don't feel like Eddard's character was all that "developed". We know far far far more about Ned now than we did when he lost his head, and that was after a whole book where nearly a third of it was told from his POV. His chapters in AGOT really did not reveal much of his inner thoughts, only his perspective on his "investigation" into Cersei's misdeeds and all the moving pieces of King's Landing.

By contrast, almost all of the time we've spent with Jon's character has been intimately intertwined with his inner thoughts, feelings and motivations, as almost all of his time in his head is spent sorting those things out, and until ADWD after he assumes control as LC and is thrust into a position of leadership, very little is spent contemplating the motivations and actions of others.

Like Imp, I not only believe it would be an incredible waste to off Jon at this stage, it simply doesn't make sense.
 
Juleska, About Eddard's development, it's possibly true that we didn't get as much insight into Eddard's thoughts as we would have liked. But perhaps GRRM couldn't go down that road if R+L=J is true. He had to keep a lot back to avoid spoiling future events. But these things become clearer in retrospect. You say yourself that upon *re-reading*, you felt Eddard isn't actually all that well developed. The point I was making was that the first time you read A Game of Thrones, you believe Eddard's the main man and that he'll be one of the primary story tellers. GRRM deliberately builds up this impression so that we are suitably shocked when he loses his head. Eddard's death wouldn't have had such a stunning impact if we didn't believe he was a primary protagonist.

Jon's been around for five books now, and has no big secrets to withhold from the reader. We've watched him grow from a boy to a man and we definitely feel like we 'know' him more intimately. I don't know that that automatically excludes him from dying though, if his death serves a purpose in future books. Jon has given us a POV from the Wall, and we've learned about The Others and the Wildlings from him. But what if the focus of the story is going to move away from The Wall. There are theories that The Wall may come down. Do we still need a POV character if The Wall isn't there anymore and the Others are on the march down through the Northern lands?

Catelyn was a major POV character, but that didn't stop her being killed either (I'm not including Zombie Cat in this discussion). At what point do we decide the death of a character is a waste? Three books of development isn't a waste, but five books is? Basically, the point I'm making is that we cannot automatically say Jon's death would make no sense until we know what direction the story is going to take.
 
I don't exclude the possibility of Jon being really dead, but the mystery around his parents makes me feel/hope there's more story for Jon. Also if the Stark's are to rise again, that would be difficult without Jon. Bran, Arya and Rickon despite their powers are only kids and Sansa... i have no idea what Sansa can or will do.

About the R+L=J theory there's something i found in Eddard's POV:
“I will, ” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and
forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made
Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.


"Ned Stark kept his vows" and "the price he’d paid to keep them", maybe the price he had to pay was to make everyone believe that he broke his vows of marriage by generating a *******, because he made a promise to Lyanna to protect Jon. And if Robert knew that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a son...
 
I don't exclude the possibility of Jon being really dead, but the mystery around his parents makes me feel/hope there's more story for Jon. Also if the Stark's are to rise again, that would be difficult without Jon. Bran, Arya and Rickon despite their powers are only kids and Sansa... i have no idea what Sansa can or will do.

About the R+L=J theory there's something i found in Eddard's POV:
“I will, ” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and
forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made
Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.


"Ned Stark kept his vows" and "the price he’d paid to keep them", maybe the price he had to pay was to make everyone believe that he broke his vows of marriage by generating a *******, because he made a promise to Lyanna to protect Jon. And if Robert knew that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a son...

That almost makes Robert Lord Vader and Ned Obi-Wan!

But seriously, something just popped into my head about the whole building up Jon's character as a POV for The Wall, wildlings, Others, etc. We've also had Sam for that.

I recognise this as a flimsy almost transparent piece of evidence for Jon's survival, but I believe Qhorin had some kind of sense, which led him to sacrifice himself so Jon could get in with the wildlings, perhaps he knew that they would need more help at The Wall, or perhaps he could see something else....perhaps Qhorin was a Warg too, and is still out there somewhere?

Here's another warg theory, Jon warg's into his first attacker, pulling the blow short of being lethal, hence he felt the hilt......

or its just a vision in Mel's flames....
 
Here's another warg theory, Jon warg's into his first attacker, pulling the blow short of being lethal, hence he felt the hilt......
Now that's one I hadn't considered....that actually makes sense and is another very simple potential justification for the "Jon is not Dead" camp.
 
That almost makes Robert Lord Vader and Ned Obi-Wan!

By R+L=J i meant Rhaegar not Robert :)


Here's another warg theory, Jon warg's into his first attacker, pulling the blow short of being lethal, hence he felt the hilt......

or its just a vision in Mel's flames....

To me all the thoughts of pov characters are true and not deceptive, so I refuse to believe in any theory of this kind.
 
By R+L=J i meant Rhaegar not Robert :)




To me all the thoughts of pov characters are true and not deceptive, so I refuse to believe in any theory of this kind.
Melisandre THINKS, or at least thought, that Stannis is AA.

Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument......................
Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

GRRM really lets us know here that while the person who is the POV character can believe things to be true, they aren't necessarily right. We've seen it many times before, but never as clearly as in this example, at least not that I can remember off hand
 
Melisandre THINKS, or at least thought, that Stannis is AA.

Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument......................
Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

GRRM really lets us know here that while the person who is the POV character can believe things to be true, they aren't necessarily right. We've seen it many times before, but never as clearly as in this example, at least not that I can remember off hand

I don't think that is the same thing as what pedro was saying. With Mel its basically "I believed x but it turned out to be y." In this case Mel's thoughts are still true, as in they are actually what she thinks, they just turn out to be wrong.

In Jon's case it's "I am experiencing x, but it turns out that y, or ~x." The only way to account for something like this is that he dreamed/imagined it, but it just doesn't follow the timeline of the chapter very well, unless the entire chapter was a dream (or a lie).
 
I don't think that is the same thing as what pedro was saying. With Mel its basically "I believed x but it turned out to be y." In this case Mel's thoughts are still true, as in they are actually what she thinks, they just turn out to be wrong.

In Jon's case it's "I am experiencing x, but it turns out that y, or ~x." The only way to account for something like this is that he dreamed/imagined it, but it just doesn't follow the timeline of the chapter very well, unless the entire chapter was a dream (or a lie).

This is what i tried to say, thanks mtzGr :)
 
Melisandre THINKS, or at least thought, that Stannis is AA.

Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument......................
Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

GRRM really lets us know here that while the person who is the POV character can believe things to be true, they aren't necessarily right. We've seen it many times before, but never as clearly as in this example, at least not that I can remember off hand
My point was that a character can beleive something to be true and it can still be false. My belief is that this wasn't a dream, but we may not have been given vital pieces of information, in other words, there's deception by commission, and deception by omission
 
My point was that a character can beleive something to be true and it can still be false.

I don't think anyone would argue that point, I certainly agree with you.

My belief is that this wasn't a dream, but we may not have been given vital pieces of information, in other words, there's deception by commission, and deception by omission

In reference to Needles theory (or some other variant), the argument pedro and I made doesn't apply, because in her theory Jon really is being stabbed, just within a different body; the experience is still true, so this is certainly a plausible stance. The argument is against Jon actually stabbing himself by warging into one of his attackers, or it being a vision of Mel's (the two theories Runic proposed).
 
I have not been reading all the pages as of late. So i'm not up to date.
I was randomly thinking about Jon's death. And how GRRM would go from here.
When i realized that the reason why he wrote what he wrote is because maybe Jon must be out of commission for the story to progress.

You see, the feuds between the great house are in the end but the backdrop the story unfolds itself in. It is the others, and those who will eventually come to oppose them that are the backbone, the heart of it all.

Dany, Tyrion, and others are still stuck in essos though. So GRRM either had the choice of making Jon uphold the wall for the next couple of books till the the other characters stories have finally come full circle and get to the north OR the Others must be able to creep south. And for that, the Wall has to fall. Given Dany's visions and stuff, and the supposed magnitude of the coming war i'm thinking the latter.

So how do you go about making the wall fall, while maintaining Jon's image as the classic hero? Well first you have him do all the right things. Make it clear Jon has a plan, and might actually pull it off, hold them at the wall. And then find a loophole to make sure he can't execute his plans. Insert a couple of treacherous Night's Watch men.

Now it might be Jon is dead. I, on the other hand see him regaining conscious after the wall has fallen, rescued by a couple of loyal supporters and somewhat freed from his vows. This opens up a path to Winterfell (which Jon still needs to visit for A.Bolton and B.His recurring dream) and beyond for the fellowship.(Wrong book?)
 
I will use GRRM's own words in a recent interview:

"So you think that Jon Snow is dead, do you?"

'Nuff said. GRRM is having way too much fun with this, and it will be fodder for discussion, totally on purpose, until we see how the Jon Snow death/undeath/warging issue is dealt with in WoW.

Personally, I subscribe to Needle's theory lock, stock and two smoking barrels.
 

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