Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Koopa]

Needle theory being?
That he is Azor?

 

[Young stormlord]

I think that Jon has sent for Melisandre, during the two hours Jon and Tormund talked...

“Melisandre … look to the skies, she said.” He set the letter down. “A raven in a storm. She saw this coming.” When you have your answers, send to me.
“Might be all a skin o’ lies.” Tormund scratched under his beard. “If I had me a nice goose quill and a pot o’ maester’s ink, I could write down that me member was long and thick as me arm, wouldn’t make it so.”
“He has Lightbringer. He talks of heads upon the walls of Winterfell. He knows about the spearwives and their number.” He knows about Mance Rayder. “No. There is truth in there.”
“I won’t say you’re wrong. What do you mean to do, crow?”

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …
“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said.
They talked for the best part of two hours.

And then there's:

“I will send for ale,” Jon said, distracted. Melisandre was gone, he realized, and so were the queen’s knights. I should have gone to Selyse first.
She has the right to know her lord is dead. “You must excuse me. I’ll leave you to get them drunk.”

I think GRRM is lying by omission. Jon has plenty of time to send for Mel, talk with her during those two hours without informing Selyse, then go with the discussed plan.

Now, as for warging into corpses, I find it unlikely, unless one of the corpses had red hair. Why? This quote, Bran's chapter.

The moon was fat and full. Summer prowled through the silent woods, a long grey shadow that grew more gaunt with every hunt, for living game could not be found. The ward upon the cave mouth still held; the dead men could not enter. The snows had buried most of them again, but they were still there, hidden, frozen, waiting. Other dead things came to join them, things that had once been men and women, even children. Dead ravens sat on bare brown branches, wings crusted with ice. A snow bear crashed through the brush, huge and skeletal, half its head sloughed away to reveal the skull beneath. Summer and his pack fell upon it and tore it into pieces. Afterward they gorged, though the meat was rotted and half-frozen, and moved even as they ate it.

We are talking about animals that Brynden and Bran have no trouble warging into. Do you really think that those two guys would have let enemy host that can fly actually stay in front of the door if they could warg inside them? And, is that snow bear Varamyr's? Maybe they really can't warg into dead things?

 

[The Imp]

I think that Jon has sent for Melisandre, during the two hours Jon and Tormund talked...



And then there's:



I think GRRM is lying by omission. Jon has plenty of time to send for Mel, talk with her during those two hours without informing Selyse, then go with the discussed plan.

Now, as for warging into corpses, I find it unlikely, unless one of the corpses had red hair. Why? This quote, Bran's chapter.



We are talking about animals that Brynden and Bran have no trouble warging into. Do you really think that those two guys would have let enemy host that can fly actually stay in front of the door if they could warg inside them? And, is that snow bear Varamyr's? Maybe they really can't warg into dead things?

I completely agree about the two hour gap, and that was the point when Jon sent for Mel and planned whatever they planned. I disagree that dead ravens on branches outside the cave is any proof, either for or against, wargs being able to possess dead animals, be they man or beast. maybe if you could explain your reasoning a bit further?

 

[mtzGr]

I think that Jon has sent for Melisandre, during the two hours Jon and Tormund talked...

Now, as for warging into corpses, I find it unlikely, unless one of the corpses had red hair. Why? This quote, Bran's chapter.

I've already made a case against "the theory", but I'll say something on these two points you raise.

I do not think Jon summoned Mel, or went to her, within those two hours, though I will not deny that it is possible. I'll just pull some text which to me, suggests that she had not been seen (as always it is open for interpretation, and people can draw their own conclusions from the quotes).

I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said.
They talked for the best part of two hours.
Horse and Rory had replaced Fulk and Muly at the armory door with the change of watch.

Now while you may say this entails omission, I think it simply shows that he is talking with Tormund and only Tormund about what they should do (which is what had been going on). The second line is only meant to show the gravity of what Jon has decided. The third suggests that he hasn't left the room.

Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me.

This is after his announcement in Shieldhall, where he also notices Mel show up in the crowd, suggesting that he hasn't spoken with Mel since the beginning of the chapter.

As for the corpses, I think it very unlikely that anything was done with them in the way of warging. Aside from the fact that there is no evidence of being able to warg into dead bodies, earlier in the chapter...

The corpses. Jon had almost forgotten them.
"What would the lord commander like us to do with his corpses?" asked Marsh when the living men had been moved.
"Leave them." If the storm entombed them, well and good. He would need to burn them eventually, no doubt, but for the nonce they were bound with iron chains inside their cells. That, and being dead, should suffice to hold them harmless.

It just seems like too much would have had to happen within that two hours.

 

[pedro_1013]

I think Needle's theory is almost impossible (i say almost because you never know). It's clear to me that during those 2 hours Jon never left the room and he didn't spoke to Melisandre after that. Also Jon has little or no experience with warging at all, and is very unlike that in a couple of hours he could mastered it. And even if Jon could warged so easily to a dead or living body, why would he do it? Because of Melisandre's premonition yes, but Jon's thoughts never indicate that he fears for is live.
Finally Jon's last word and thoughts: “Ghost” and "Stick them with the pointy end". Why would he say/thought this if he was not dying?
Resuming it's just to many thoughts too hide and too many misleading thoughts.

Here's my opinion:
Jon is betrayed by some members of the watch (that think they are doing the right think despite being hard, especially for Bowen Marsh that seems to be crying). Jon is stabbed four times (not certain about the fourth one) and he is dying. From "Only the cold...", i think it means that the others are coming. We will know this from a Melisandre POV or from a Prologue of Val, Tormund or Leather. That POV or prologue will start with the sound of a horn three times, and it will be caos, the wildlings, the men from the watch, the men from the Queen, all fighting and the others attacking the wall. In the middle of all that someone will save Jon (Melisandre or one of the wildings or both) and heal him (but it will take some time for him to heal, he will be off the game for a while).

 

[firstfist]

I'm slowly but surely making my way through this thread. Very interesting, and some good points have been made.

I kind of have a question that I have as of yet not seen addressed. Maybe I just haven't gotten that far, or maybe it is in another thread.

Here is the question: What was going on with Wig Wum Wum (know that is close but not quite right) the giant just before Jon is offed? The chaos from that seems like it probably has something to do with what happens to Jon. If that is so, and Needles theory is correct (in that Jon plotted his own seeming death) then it would it not also seem that he had planned the attack on the Giant also?
If so, I can't buy that.

 

[Stribog]

Well, I believe that Jon didn't know exactly when and where he will be ambushed, so he didn't plan it in the way that he staged everything, but that he prepared his "exit" when attack on his life occur.

Wunwun killing the knight was 'trigger' that set the stage for those that planned to kill Jon, but otherwise it was totally coincidental.

 

[pedro_1013]

I've read somewhere a good explanation for what happened with Wun Wun. The dead Knight he holds is Ser Patrek, the one that Queen Selyse wanted to marry Val. Jon Snow said then that is a wildling custom that when a man desires a woman, he steals her. So i think that Ser Patrek tried to steal Val and the Giant was on guard at Val's door.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I Must confess at jumping to the last page, (after reading the first 10 though) After reading the posts on the last page I realize that this may be a little off topic, or may have been covered.

SORRY

There was alot of discussion earlier around Ned Lying to cover the whole R+L=J to protect Jon from the wrath of Robert and his hatered for Targarians. While I think this is valid, I think it must be said that Robert isn't the only one who hates targarians. It was Tywin, or at least his men, who killed the other targ children.

If this theory is true, I don't think any of Ned's actions after that point, apart from continuing to hold up the tale of Jon's birth, had anything to do with any intentions Ned had for Jon. Ned was to Raise Jon as his own son. That is it, and I think that is all Ned meant to do. Jon's decision to join the wall was just that, His decision. Ned, as his father, (the only one Jon had) was of course worried for his "son", but there were no Schemes or plots on Ned's part on what Jon's roll would be. Ned is a very practical, loyal and honest man. Very straightforward. If he promissed to tell no-one, he would tell no-one. Not even his wife.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Sorry for the double post, but I also wanted to add some thoughts on Wyla and her roll in this whole thing. This is obviously just a theory

Follow this timeline:

Ned is looking for his sister and the last 3 kingsguard. He ends up in Starfall, since one of the kingsguard is a Dayne. (not to mention ashara is there too, and ned, being honorable, has to tell her what is going to happen when he finds her brother, vis a vis, they are going to fight, at some point Ashara kills herself because she knows she is going to lose a man she loves, no matter the outcome)

Continuing his search Ned finds Lyanna and baby jon at the tower of joy, promises to look after Jon. (after the whole, slaughter thing happens)

Ned brings that sword back to the Daynes

Meanwhile, Wylla, already a servant or something at Starfall, has a miscarriage or still born, that happens conviently enough for Ned to say that Baby Jon is Wylla (and His) baby. (there would have to be a reason that everyone thought Wyla was preggers, and that she had milk to give)

That other Dayne Lady has a baby, but has no milk so Jon and the young ned become milk brothers

With how long it takes to get anywhere on foot, the timing could match up to within a few months. Nobody is going to question if a baby was born 1 or 2 months before or after it should have been born, as these things happen, even in modern society

 

[Sho Pi]

I can't believe that Jon is truly gone from the story. He might be dead, or just injured, but I believe that either Bran or Melissandre is going to bring him back. That would fit quite well with another theory I've had, namely that he is Azor Ahai. I mean it's definitely not going to be Stannis, and now we are all aware that Dany isn't the last Targaryen left I'm disinclined to believe it's going to be her. It makes much more sense if it is one of Rhaegar's kids, and with Jon you also have an alterior motive for Rhaegar going after Lyanna. He seemed to have known things no one else does.

I know that Martin has shown few qualms in killing of his characters, but Jon's storyline seemed far from finished even though he had painted himself in corner that was hard for him to get out of, maybe this is the way the disconnect him from his oaths. Also Jon was the main character together with Dany up till this point, characters like Ned, Robb, Tywin, etc. were always much less important and just vehicles for the storyline to develop.

 

[Avenger93]

Hey guys first post so bear with me on this one.

I'll start by saying that with the possible exception of Danny, Jon is by far my favourite character in the series. And I have read through this forum (and finished ADWD) and I'm loving all the theories regarding Jon (some of them I had myself). But what I don't really see people discusing is why should Jon be alive or dead. I'll try to put aside my bias as I write this, but to me the whole "death scene" rings false.

First of from a stylistic point of view. Going partialy by memory and partialy by recent re-reading, when a big character dies he is put in a situation that is preety much irecuperable. When we get a cliff-hanger type close-call death the character most likely survives (as evidenced by our favourite Lanister). Allow me to elaborate: Ned gets his head chopped of - no way he lives after that, Rob gets his head chopped off, Catelyn gets her throat slith (i know she gets "resurrected" but actualy I view things differently there and I'll explain near the end*), Twin gets an arrow in the guts with no one to hear him call for help, same for Kevan, Viserys gets a molten gold crown - ouch, The old Bear gets buchered, Drogo is turned into a mindless zombie, that knight with Myrcella (can't remember his name right now) gets eviscerated in a graphic fashion ... and these are all the examples i can remember. On the other hand we have tons of close call that never come through because the wounds or situations are not definitive: Tyrion (do I even need to say anything? He gets so many close calls yet each time we are left on the fence as to his fate ... and he allways comes back), Jon (has his close calls while with Halfhand and with the wildlings), Brienne (hanging but not yet dead agrees to kill Jaime - she lives), The Mountain (poisoned, but brough back through frankenstein science), Arya (the close calls with Sandor)**. Point beeing there is a pattern to the way people get killed in this series and there is a patter for how they just get near-death.

Second is the story perspective. I just don't see it going without Jon. I know many of you brought up valid arguments for why Jon can die, but answer me this: Who is better suited to figh the Others? No other character can pick up the mantle. The series is ment to end bitter-sweent, not apocalyptic (which is preety much the eternal winter that the others bring), but for that one thing is clear: The Others must be vanquished and I just fail to se anyone interested or capable to pull it off (Dany, dragons though she may have, is totaly unaware and she lacks the maturity to deal with such a problem, Stannis is most likely dead and even if he wasn't he is clearly a fake AA (but I don't count him out of a helping role just yet) and the other major players are hardly worth mentioning). Unless we get a screeching halt and U-turn that makes the Others the good guys (I laugh at the concept of good guys in a Matin story), thing which for me would spell bad writing, Jon is needed to this story finaly like we need air to live. I will refrain from comenting on the AA theories (religion and prophecies never brought any character any good in this story) but I will comment on his lineage. This is a part of the story which needs to be adressed before Jon dies, and in his current "death" that can't happen. But barring even these 2 things Jon is needed if life in Westeros in to continue simply because he is the only character who has everything needed to fight off The Others.

My final argument is the physical one. We are at the Wall. Winter has allready started. There have been week long blizzards and snow storms. It's freezing cold outside and it's snowing. Unless Jon is somehow imune to cold (which he isn't) he needs to be wearing some preety thick clothes. That and he is wearing his NW LC uniform right? Armor people. Armor+Thick clothes vs Dagger. I doubt those daggers could even touch his skin. Even Thick clothes vs dagger and he would only get superficial wounds.

So where does that leave us considering the passage? One posibility is the neck wound beeing way deeper than Jon though but this takes us into Cattelyn teritory. However it is not explicitly stated, but we do get a dodge attempt by Jon so ... I'm on the fence. Another is that it's a frame job prepped by Jon ... which means he would lie and omit everything and would require DEM powers. But to me everything in the chappter ringed false from other Jon chapters. His attitude, the way he immediatly plans to go after Bolton after just a vague letter (when before it just took word of Ned beeing in prison to get him to leave, but he then returns to his vows, as he does time and time again from then onwards), the way he ignores Ghost (when before a simple change in the way his wolf walked or turned his ears attracted his attention), the whole public speech which at first made me laugh at the ideea that Jon Snow would do such a thing (he knows why he brought the wildlings, he knows the others are coming, he would never risk his slim chances on a stupid threath from a stupid ******* that can't reach him in because of the piss-poor weather conditions), the way he doesn't immediantly inform the NW and the queen about the letter (that threat was as much directed at him as it was at the NW and the queen and Jon never lied to his brothers at least), his disregard for the fate of the dead bodies when before he took extra care for them to be accesible to him), his inability to pull out Longclaw (when never before has this been an issue) and finaly the way this chapter skims over important streches of time (the they talked for the better part of two hours bit) and omiting to tell us important and relecant things Jon planned (something that to my knoledge isn't done in Jon's POVs) while also giving an exact measurments of time (2 hours, 7days battle (preety odd no one thought of The Seven here since we are at crack-pot theories and sign interpretation)) something rarely done in the book and almost never in a Jon POV. For me it's either a case that he decided to fake the wounds and he really has no problem cause of all the clothes he was wearing or there is some serious magic happening here.

*Catelyn doesn't get your Red Priest resurrection (lowering the number of times it's been done). Beric Dondarion passes on the flame of life to her dead body and that triggers some fragments of her former self to inhabit it again. In my view Catelyn stays dead after TRW, what Beric creates is a pseudo beeing with Catelyn's memories. Much like a wight, but with free will and no personality, just vengence.

**I would have listed Jaime and the moment he looses his arm but I refrained for 2 reasons: I couldn't remember if it was done as a cliff-hanger ment to make us think he will get chopped to bits and getting your hand removed isn't tht much of a near death (not in a medieval setting and not today).

I would be happy to hear some feed-back on this and I kindly ask you guys to forgive my spelling errors (it's preety late and I'm dead tired). Also feel free to correct if I got anything wrong (but you didn't need me telling you that did you?)

As a final request is there a thread where one can discus crack-pot theories around the prophecy and where everyone falls into them or should I just adress it here (cause mine has a take on Jon)? Or should I create one? Thanks for the answer.

 

[Stribog]

Welcome Avenger! Would answer your questions but I'm dead tired of reading through your entire post . So i'll leave it to The Imp or Boaz, as I think you will be buddies in no time!

Oh yes, no need to worry about your English, mine is far worse and I get by

 

[Needle]

Avenger93, first let me say Welcome to Chrons!!

My final argument is the physical one. We are at the Wall. Winter has allready started. There have been week long blizzards and snow storms. It's freezing cold outside and it's snowing. Unless Jon is somehow imune to cold (which he isn't) he needs to be wearing some preety thick clothes. That and he is wearing his NW LC uniform right? Armor people. Armor+Thick clothes vs Dagger. I doubt those daggers could even touch his skin. Even Thick clothes vs dagger and he would only get superficial wounds.

With all the discussion we have done here I can't remember this ever being brought up! It is certainly a valid thought, not to be ignored!

**I would have listed Jaime and the moment he looses his arm but I refrained for 2 reasons: I couldn't remember if it was done as a cliff-hanger ment to make us think he will get chopped to bits and getting your hand removed isn't tht much of a near death (not in a medieval setting and not today).

This was in a cliffhanger, something like "I want to hear you scream" "That will not happen" The araka (sp?) flashed and Jaime screamed. End of chapter.

But to me everything in the chappter ringed false from other Jon chapters. His attitude, the way he immediatly plans to go after Bolton after just a vague letter (when before it just took word of Ned beeing in prison to get him to leave, but he then returns to his vows, as he does time and time again from then onwards), the way he ignores Ghost (when before a simple change in the way his wolf walked or turned his ears attracted his attention), the whole public speech which at first made me laugh at the ideea that Jon Snow would do such a thing (he knows why he brought the wildlings, he knows the others are coming, he would never risk his slim chances on a stupid threath from a stupid ******* that can't reach him in because of the piss-poor weather conditions), the way he doesn't immediantly inform the NW and the queen about the letter (that threat was as much directed at him as it was at the NW and the queen and Jon never lied to his brothers at least), his disregard for the fate of the dead bodies when before he took extra care for them to be accesible to him), his inability to pull out Longclaw (when never before has this been an issue) and finaly the way this chapter skims over important streches of time (the they talked for the better part of two hours bit) and omiting to tell us important and relecant things Jon planned (something that to my knoledge isn't done in Jon's POVs) while also giving an exact measurments of time (2 hours, 7days battle (preety odd no one thought of The Seven here since we are at crack-pot theories and sign interpretation)) something rarely done in the book and almost never in a Jon POV. For me it's either a case that he decided to fake the wounds and he really has no problem cause of all the clothes he was wearing or there is some serious magic happening here.

Yeah!! All of my points in one!! Imp is the crackpot king around here , but here is the link to my best theory! I like new posters to take a look and tell me how crazy they think I am!! I'm betting you won't think me crazy at all!

http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/1528838-post223.html

 

[Tywin]

Welcome Avenger! Would answer your questions but I'm dead tired of reading through your entire post . So i'll leave it to The Imp or Boaz, as I think you will be buddies in no time!

Our forum needs a "like" button.

 

[juleska]

Welcome Avenger! I say roll right ahead with your crackpot theory right here....all the rest of us do!

 

[Avenger93]

Needle I read your theory (read the entire thread and it's huge). It's preety good all things considered and is one valid way of seeing how this solves out at least from a Jon lives perspective. I really like it and can't find any obvious flaws in it but I will come back after a re-read of the last book.

Stribog I amazed myself at how long the post was when I was done with it ... never realized I actualy wrote that much.

Thanks for a great welcome guys and I hope I'll be joining more of the discusions on the the forum as soon as I have some free time (final exams are a bitch).

 

[Avenger93]

Oh yeah just read the teaser chapter and unless there is a serious time lapse cronologicaly and these things happened before Jon's last chapter (which I doubt cause the book kept a preety consistent cronological order and I can't remember any times when events where shown in the wrong order) this just proves that the letter enters the fake things in the last chapter. Yes it's made o seem real to us as readers but there are plenty of things that are forced in it alone to raise plenty or red flags about the suposed "last chapter" or Jon. I'm feeling preety confident our favorite ******* will live.

 

[Ursa major]

The end of one book in the series often describes events that have not yet occurred in the next book. This is most obvious when you look at those lists of chapters for a combined A Feast for Crows/A Dance with Dragons volume.

 

[Avenger93]

yeah but AFFF and ADWD are ment to be companion pieces adressing the same timeline but in different geographical areas. I didn't notice the phenomenon in the other books but maybe a reread after i'm done with my examns might enlighten me.

Also we don't actualy know where in the book the teaser chapter fits, except maybe asume it's among the first, so i can dream damn it.