Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Jaqen H'gar]

Welcome Avenger93,

I don't know if you realize this, but by your logic, Syrio Forel and Benjen Stark are alive. I don't necessarily disagree, but it makes me wonder

 

[Avenger93]

Well I was talking about main characters. But to adress your point: syrio had just a wooden sword against a bunch of lanister guards in armor and a knight. call me crazy but he had no chance and he knew it. as for benjen he preety much vanished without us getting anything from his character, and he might still be walking around as Coldhands. However what you bring up is a valid point and flaw in my logic so thank you for pointing this out.

 

[Ursa major]

yeah but AFFF and ADWD are ment to be companion pieces adressing the same timeline but in different geographical areas. I didn't notice the phenomenon in the other books but maybe a reread after i'm done with my examns might enlighten me.

Right at the beginning of A Storm of Swords (i.e. before the splitting of the fourth book into AFfC and ADwD), you will find this:

A NOTE ON CHRONOLOGY

A Song of Ice and Fire is told through the eyes of characters who are sometimes hundreds or even thousands of miles apart from one another. Some chapters cover a day, some only an hour; others might span a fortnight, a month, half a year. With such a structure, the narrative cannot be strictly sequential; sometimes important things are happening simultaneously, a thousand leagues apart.​

In the case of the volume now in hand, the reader should realize that the opening chapters of A Storm of Swords do not follow the closing chapters of A Clash of Kings so much as overlap them. I open with a look at some of the things that were happening on the Fist of the First Men, at Riverrun, Harrenhal, and on the Trident while the Battle of Blackwater was being fought at King's Landing, and during its aftermath . . .

George R. R. Martin​

​

 

[Avenger93]

wow i can't believe i forgot that. man i really need to reread everything again. thx for setting me straight.

 

[Rufio]

The Stannis preview chapter explicitly takes place before the battle between Stannis and the Boltons, so it could neither confirm or deny his supposed death even if it took place after the letter was sent (what a strange double bluff that would be).

 

[Asha]

Arrgh ! First post I ever wrote in English, and I lost it because it was so long for me to write it that I was logged out when I tried to publish it…​

Anyway, I’ll try to re-write it (and please be lenient with my English, that’s not my native language…)​

First of all, I’m glad I found this forum !! I just finished reading ADWD, couldn’t stand the idea of Jon being dead. One Google request later, here I am reading this tread through from pages 8 to 48… All these (crackpot or not) theories are brilliant !​

As for me, I particularly like Needle’s theory, and I’d love for it to be the truth, but as I re-read this chapter, I found something which imo doesn’t totally fit with the idea of Jon warging in a ice cell corpse : first, it’s written :​

“The corpses. Jon has almost forgotten them.”​

If so, how could Jon have been secretly practicing at warging in one ? OK, Needle’s theory doesn’t need for Jon to have warged in one of them before that day. But later, after the speech in the shieldhall, we find :​

“ ‘Is it wights ?’ asked Rory. Jon wondered. Could his corpses have escaped their chains ?”​

But in Needle’s theory, at that time Jon is supposed to be warging one of these, isn’t he ? If so, how could he wonder if they have escaped ? But again, I love this theory, and I’ll be glad to be proved wrong !​

Another thing : imo Jon’s decision to go south to Winterfell isn’t so out of character ; Jon has been struggling for a while with the ‘the NW doesn’t take side in the wars of the Kingdom’ rule, especially as it involve the Boltons. He couldn’t help himself giving Stannis the idea of finding men amongst the northmen’s clans. He didn’t go searching for Arya, but agreed to release Mance to do it. And the letter was the final blow :​

“ I want my bride back… I want my bride back… I want my bride back”​

It doesn’t surprise me to see Jon, probably feeling guilty to have left who he thinks is Arya in Ramsay’s hands, and seeing a chance to rescue her (Ramsay doesn’t have her anymore), deciding to go to Winterfell.​

 

[Tywin]

Asha! Bienvenue a notre forum!

I think they should rename this thread the "Welcome to the SFF Chronicles Forums thread" because the Jon Snow thread is how a lot of us found this place on the internet.

Asha, I love the points you brought out. They are fresh, factual, and I think shed some serious doubts on a pet theory of ours that we may have been too in love with to look at critically enough.

Again, welcome, and I hope to read more from you.

 

[Asha]

Thanks for the welcome (and in French!), Tywin!
And as I believe you suggested earlier, I agree we should make a poll to figure out how many of us joined this forum thanks to this thread...

 

[Runic]

I know that I certainly did!

 

[glaedr]

the premise that jon is the heir to the throne because rhaegar and lyanna loved each other could be explained that rhaegar saw the need to end the targarian rule for some reason and sought to provoke war, lyannas promise could be that ned return her home hence he remembers her wish when home seems furtherest from him/ when he loses hope of returning himself not sure i believe this myself but don't see why it isn't possible.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Here's my opinion:
Jon is betrayed by some members of the watch (that think they are doing the right think despite being hard, especially for Bowen Marsh that seems to be crying). Jon is stabbed four times (not certain about the fourth one) and he is dying. From "Only the cold...", i think it means that the others are coming. We will know this from a Melisandre POV or from a Prologue of Val, Tormund or Leather. That POV or prologue will start with the sound of a horn three times, and it will be caos, the wildlings, the men from the watch, the men from the Queen, all fighting and the others attacking the wall. In the middle of all that someone will save Jon (Melisandre or one of the wildings or both) and heal him (but it will take some time for him to heal, he will be off the game for a while).

I agree with much of this post regarding Needles Theory. The first Time i read "The Theory" (and I feel it does deserve the capital letters), I was very excited about it and wanted to believe it more than anything. Then, as I thought about it more, it didn't seem practical (and recent evidence from Asha makes me even more skeptical of it) so Then I wanted to believe that it was simply someone else impersonating John (probably without John Knowing) with the help of Melisandra, but I can't find or think of any evidence to support that. I feel like if that were the case, GRRM would have called the pov, Lord Snow or something else that would set it apart and make us go "Huh?"

So Now I am pretty much in agreement with Pedro. Our John really did get stabbed upwards of 4 times. I think the next chapter will start from a minor character POV (as Always) who is on the wall who will shed some light on the situation, if not on Jon's actual fate. This is where I disagree. I don't think the Others are coming just yet. Personally, I feel like the cold John is fealing is that common literary device that people feel cold when they are dying, and that we are looking to far into that pont. I think it is too early for the Others to attack, and John, dead or not, is out of commission and wouldn't be able to rally the NW and Wildlings. And, if Jon isn't dead, then he would be missing the most important battle of the books so far. I think the Chaos we are about to get a glimpse into will simply be the result of the in-fighting between the NW loyalists and the Wildlings and the betrators and the Queens Men. I think Wun Wun is in a good position to save John's dying body, and bring it to Val (not Mel) and val will bandage him up and look after him. Val has some good insights to Death, as evidenced by her reaction to Shireen. John's soul in the mean-time will have a bit of a vacation in Ghost. I don't think we will get a full Warged Wolf chapter, but we may very well have some flash-backs when John regains real consiousness in his own body.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Sorry for the double post.

I just had another thought supporting why the White Walkers aren't coming right now.

We know the wall holds some Magic. (melisandra is more powerful there, Aemon lived a long time and Cold Hands couln't cross it) so I think it's safe to assume that magic is there to help the wall perform its main duty, which is to keep the White Walkers out. I don't think they can cross the wall while it still stand. Someone made the point earlier (in this thread I think) that the wall might collapse. Something along the lines of "the wall will stand as long as there are loyal mean of the NW to defend it" and now, because the men attacked their Lord Commander, we could say that the wall may not fall, or hold its same power.

two opposing arguments against this theory are

1- The men who attacked Jon WERE loyal to the watch ("for the watch" *stab stab*)

2- If these men weren't Loyal, there are the men at Eastwatch and.. that other castle at the other end (westwatch?) and even the other men that Jon sent away that a) don't know about jon's speach and subsequent, alleged, breaking of Oaths. b)don't know about Jon getting stabbed to (near) death and c) are as Loyal as they come.

 

[Tywin]

I like the point about the "loyal men of the NW". We do need a way for the wall to fall or be breached for this entire plot arc to come to fruition.

As it stands now, that wall is impenetrable magic for white walkers, and the purpose of the NW is... nothing. They could just pack up and head south and that big wall would keep the Others out of the realms of men.

What are our leading theories on how the wall will fall or be breached? We've got that big horn of Joramun, and now the "loyal men of the NW" which I think would be nicely tied in with their oath and dedication providing the power of the magic.

 

[Mesanna]

Have any of you seen this interview with Alfie Allen (the guy who plays Theon in the TV show):

http://www.vulture.com/2012/06/game-of-thrones-theon-alfie-allen-interview.html

He said he asked GRRM about Jon Snow's father. I've quoted the relevant part below:

"You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely ****** up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though."

What do you all make of that? A Luke Skywalker situation implies a bad guy. That sure isn't Ned and I don't think it sounds much like Rhaegar either (though that depends on who you listen to). It certainly sounds like Alfie has read the books when he talks about Reek, so I don't quite know how to interpret his comments.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

First, I agree with Tywin that the wall DOES have to come down or at least the magic in it will fail. I just don't think its going to happen yet. I also am not sure of the extent of the walls magic. It certainly kept Coldhands out, but it didn't stop the NW from bringing those 2 wights in, who ended up attacking the Old Bear. Is there like a vampire type deal where they need to be invited/brought in? (if so, my guess is Patchface is gonna bring those suckers right on in) Can they reanimate a corpse thats on the other side of the wall?

What do you all make of that? A Luke Skywalker situation implies a bad guy. That sure isn't Ned and I don't think it sounds much like Rhaegar either (though that depends on who you listen to). It certainly sounds like Alfie has read the books when he talks about Reek, so I don't quite know how to interpret his comments.

I think this, if anything, implies L+R=J. When Queen Natalie Portman fell in love with little Aniken Skywalker, he wasnt evil yet, but then was turned into the Villian. I think GRRMs story is much more complex than that, but that may very well be the case here. R+L loved each other, but then R ended up fighting on the wrong side of the war (only wrong cause he lost)

 

[Rufio]

That is a bit confusing. The Luke Skywalker thing maybe also implies his father revealing it to him, which would rule out Rhaegar and Ned! Plus Robert, though he's pretty unlikely anyway. That and the mention of incest, the only thing I can think to relate those two facts is the mad theory of Benjen and Lyanna.

I suppose Jon may think of Rhaegar as a villain, though apart from Robert most of Westeros, up to and including Ned, don't seem to.

Maybe the incest comments relate to Jon and Dany? The biggest villain who could be Jon's father is Aerys. That would make them half siblings, maybe they have a Luke and Leia moment?

I firmly believe R+L=J (as I think most people who are aware of the theory do) but that comment doesn't really add anything to it. I suppose the mention of the Targaryen succession supports it.

I've got the feeling Jon's parentage will be revealed relatively early on in the Winds Of Winter anyway. I think it will be part of a change in his character along with death and resurrection.

I thought about The Wall coming down for a while, but I agree with Whitebeard it hasn't happened yet. Despite all the magic and the magic dragon horn (probably) I still struggle with the idea of a horn blast bringing down the Wall, so the vampire invitation idea is interesting. A good candidate for that might be The Weeper if he gets over the Bridge Of Skulls? Or perhaps if the magic weakened somehow they can go around? Hardhome springs to mind. Do White Walkers sail?

 

[viZion]

I think you guys are taking the quote a bit too far. Allen says, "it's a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation." I don't think he means to imply that the situation is EXACTLY the same as the Star Wars story. I.e. it doesn't imply the two things you guys are thinking it implies (1) there's a bad guy 2) he must find out from his father).

However - and this is where I love the theme in this theory that "good" depends on which point of view you're looking from - there IS a bad guy in the R + L = J theory that makes it a "bit of a Luke Skywalker situation". And that bad guy is Robert Baratheon. Oh wait, we've been led to believe he was the "good guy"? Again, depends on how you look at it. Rhaegar and Lyanna knew that Robert would kill Jon if he knew of his existence as Rhaegar's son. Robert hated the Targaryens that much! He'd especially hate Jon even more than most Targaryens because he was born from his love who was "raped". So Lyanna had to hide Jon's existence and give Jon to his uncle Eddard. Sounds like "a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation" to me.

 

[Mesanna]

Since posting Alfie Allen's comments, I actually came across another article on IO9 which briefly discussed them too. They said ...

"Let's assume Allen knows what he's talking about when making the Star Wars analogy. For this to be a Luke Skywalker situation, you'd kind of have to think that Jon Snow's father — the one parent he thought he was sure of — isn't who he thought he was. Also, his father is a monster on the scale of Darth Vader. At the risk of adding 2 and 2 together to make 1,000, his sudden segue into discussion of the Targaryen line might be relevant here."

I think this guy is implying that Aerys is the father. (I'm fairly sure that idea has been discussed around here by Boaz maybe?) Anyway, just I thought I'd share another viewpoint.

 

[viZion]

Since posting Alfie Allen's comments, I actually came across another article on IO9 which briefly discussed them too. They said ...

"Let's assume Allen knows what he's talking about when making the Star Wars analogy. For this to be a Luke Skywalker situation, you'd kind of have to think that Jon Snow's father — the one parent he thought he was sure of — isn't who he thought he was. Also, his father is a monster on the scale of Darth Vader. At the risk of adding 2 and 2 together to make 1,000, his sudden segue into discussion of the Targaryen line might be relevant here."

I think this guy is implying that Aerys is the father. (I'm fairly sure that idea has been discussed around here by Boaz maybe?) Anyway, just I thought I'd share another viewpoint.

Robert fits the same description of a monster on the scale of Darth Vader if you're looking at it from Rhaegar Targaryen's point of view. The guy advocated killing babies by having their heads dashed against a wall. He didn't care if they were kids or not, he wanted ALL Targaryens destroyed. He was still hunting Dany 13 years later!

 

[Rufio]

I think you guys are taking the quote a bit too far. Allen says, "it's a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation." I don't think he means to imply that the situation is EXACTLY the same as the Star Wars story. I.e. it doesn't imply the two things you guys are thinking it implies (1) there's a bad guy 2) he must find out from his father).

However - and this is where I love the theme in this theory that "good" depends on which point of view you're looking from - there IS a bad guy in the R + L = J theory that makes it a "bit of a Luke Skywalker situation". And that bad guy is Robert Baratheon. Oh wait, we've been led to believe he was the "good guy"? Again, depends on how you look at it. Rhaegar and Lyanna knew that Robert would kill Jon if he knew of his existence as Rhaegar's son. Robert hated the Targaryens that much! He'd especially hate Jon even more than most Targaryens because he was born from his love who was "raped". So Lyanna had to hide Jon's existence and give Jon to his uncle Eddard. Sounds like "a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation" to me.

You're almost definitely right about the first part. But (over)analysing and crazy theorizing are fun. I've got at least three theories why the actress playing Brienne calls him Alien.

So Rhaegar is Darth Vader, Jon's father, in service to the evil empire against the rebellion, but not neccesarily evil, but Robert is the Emperor? Ned is Luke Skywalker's uncle whose name I can't remember, the north is Tatooine. Jon Snow will grow up to bring balance to the force*. But who is his Yoda?

*actually, that part might be true