Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Keebs411]

You're almost definitely right about the first part. But (over)analysing and crazy theorizing are fun. I've got at least three theories why the actress playing Brienne calls him Alien.

So Rhaegar is Darth Vader, Jon's father, in service to the evil empire against the rebellion, but not neccesarily evil, but Robert is the Emperor? Ned is Luke Skywalker's uncle whose name I can't remember, the north is Tatooine. Jon Snow will grow up to bring balance to the force*. But who is his Yoda?

*actually, that part might be true

Waaaat. Ok going ona star was comparison clealry i would say measter aemon was his yoda. Old and wise beyond his yrs he was yes

 

[Rufio]

Aemon is a good fit for Yoda.

Is Sam C3P0?

 

[Ursa major]

To go completely crackpot....


What if the 'little bit like Luke Skywater' involved the loss of a hand. That might mean that Jaime is Jon's father....


(I did say it was completely crackpot.)

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Would that make Ghost Chewbacca?

And Howland reed is probably Yoda. He's mysterious and lives in a swamp. Almost definately wise, and may end up teaching Jon something for a brief, but important part of the story.

 

[juleska]

Have any of you seen this interview with Alfie Allen (the guy who plays Theon in the TV show):

http://www.vulture.com/2012/06/game-of-thrones-theon-alfie-allen-interview.html

He said he asked GRRM about Jon Snow's father. I've quoted the relevant part below:

"You know, I asked him about who Jon Snow's real parents were, and he told me. I can't say who, but I can tell you that it involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation. It will all come to fruition eventually. The whole thing with all the fight over proper succession is partly inspired by the War of the Roses in the late 1400s, and back then, to ensure pedigree, the monarchies were kind of inbred. It's definitely ****** up, but it definitely happened back then, so that's why there's incest with the Targaryen line. It's toned down, though."

What do you all make of that? A Luke Skywalker situation implies a bad guy. That sure isn't Ned and I don't think it sounds much like Rhaegar either (though that depends on who you listen to). It certainly sounds like Alfie has read the books when he talks about Reek, so I don't quite know how to interpret his comments.

I think that lends credence to the idea that Lyanna *was* raped, but not by Rhaegar, rather Aerys. That was one of the ideas bandied about after ADWD when Bran sees the woman who fits Lyanna's description, heavy with child, praying to the heart tree that her child will grow to avenge her.

It would also fit with the theory about Tyrion being the product of Aerys raping Joanna. Dany's mother died giving birth to her, Jon's mother died giving birth to him (if you believe his mother is Lyanna), Tyrion's mother died giving birth to him. If you believe Aerys is the father in all those cases it makes sense. The dude was crazy....with all that raping going on, maybe he had syphilis or some Westerosi hyper-version of it?

And picture that from Rhaegar's perspective. By all accounts Rhaegar was very well loved and would have been a great king. He can see his dad is crazy, and in the HOTU when he said "the dragon must have 3 heads", it tells me he was trying to follow the prophecy to set up a better succession from his father's destructive rule. But then Robert had to go and get all hot-headed and start a rebellion, and instead of backing Rhaegar to remove his father and put him on the throne, decided to take the throne himself.

I think it fits.

 

[Needle]

For me. the "Luke Skywalker" comment lends credence to Boaz's Aerys theory. I don't believe Rheagar was the bad guy to anyone but Robert. As far as I can tell Ned never made him out to be one. As much as I would like to believe Rheagar is his father, I am beginning to doubt it. For Jon to find out Ned is not his father will rock Jon's world, to find out Aerys is his father will turn it completely upside down! We must only hope that he has matured enough to know that the only differences it makes are political ones'. He can not allow it change who he is, he is still Ned's son, a child raised in the ways of Winterfell!

 

[viZion]

I still think it all points more towards Rhaegar being Jon's father rather than Aerys. Sure, Darth Vader was a bad guy but he wasn't when Luke was conceived. He was in love with Padme the same way Rhaegar was in love with Lyanna. No raping occurred in either situation. The "Darth Vader" in this case (to Rhaegar and Lyanna) is Robert not Aerys. I mean, it's not *exactly* like Star Wars but it's similar enough that it's "a bit like" it.

Also, would we expect GRRM to really ripoff Star Wars so closely? The comment made by Allen was a simple analogy not a plot outline.

I will grant that there is symmetry involved with Aerys being the father of Tyrion, Jon, and Dany if you're in the camp that believes they are the heads of the dragons. My money is still on Rhaegar though.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

True Enough Vis.

May also be worth mentioning that Darth Vader did good in the end, so he wasnt ALL bad.

 

[viZion]

True Enough Vis.

May also be worth mentioning that Darth Vader did good in the end, so he wasnt ALL bad.

The other part I like about Robert being the actual bad guy is that it keeps in line with GRRM's theme of bad and good being relative. In AGOT Robert is presented to us as the good guy who is done in by those mean ol' Lannisters. But it would be perfect if the reason Jon's identity had to be hidden is because Robert is the bad guy who would have killed infant Jon without a second thought if he knew the truth.

And, yes, I realize the above still holds true if Aerys is the father but it's not quite as fun since there's really no way Aerys could ever be considered a good guy no matter whose point of view you use. He was just too insane.

 

[Rufio]

The threat of Robert to Jon makes a lot more sense if he's Rhaegar's son, Robert hates Rhaegar above all. Also, despite the shifts in our perception of those two characters, Robert isn't a cold blooded child killer. He couldn't look at Rhaenys and Aegon's bodies, and Tywin ordered those killings knowing that they had to be done but that Robert wouldn't relish it (let alone Ned). Also if I remember correctly he had to be talked into eventually putting the hit on Dany.

 

[juleska]

The threat of Robert to Jon makes a lot more sense if he's Rhaegar's son, Robert hates Rhaegar above all. Also, despite the shifts in our perception of those two characters, Robert isn't a cold blooded child killer. He couldn't look at Rhaenys and Aegon's bodies, and Tywin ordered those killings knowing that they had to be done but that Robert wouldn't relish it (let alone Ned). Also if I remember correctly he had to be talked into eventually putting the hit on Dany.

I disagree. Robert didn't distinguish which Targ was the father, to him they were all the same. He refers to Dany as a "whore" and regrets not having her or her brother killed when he had the chance, and they were not Rhaegar's children. His hatred of Rhaegar was amplified by his jealousy over Rhaegar's thing with Lyanna, but apart from that....a Targ is a Targ is a Targ is a Targ.

 

[Keebs411]

I disagree. Robert didn't distinguish which Targ was the father, to him they were all the same. He refers to Dany as a "whore" and regrets not having her or her brother killed when he had the chance, and they were not Rhaegar's children. His hatred of Rhaegar was amplified by his jealousy over Rhaegar's thing with Lyanna, but apart from that....a Targ is a Targ is a Targ is a Targ.

which i always found funny because wasnt Roberts family supposed to have some targ blood line with in it as well? For some reason i thought it was one of the reason he was said to have the stonger claim to the throne once the rebellion ended? i could be a bit off but i was under that assumption.

 

[juleska]

which i always found funny because wasnt Roberts family supposed to have some targ blood line with in it as well? For some reason i thought it was one of the reason he was said to have the stonger claim to the throne once the rebellion ended? i could be a bit off but i was under that assumption.

I believe you're correct.....but Robert often talked out of both sides of his mouth.

He really was a terrible person.

 

[viZion]

I disagree. Robert didn't distinguish which Targ was the father, to him they were all the same. He refers to Dany as a "whore" and regrets not having her or her brother killed when he had the chance, and they were not Rhaegar's children. His hatred of Rhaegar was amplified by his jealousy over Rhaegar's thing with Lyanna, but apart from that....a Targ is a Targ is a Targ is a Targ.

This is exactly what I was thinking. I don't believe Robert started hating Targs until Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna and from then on his rage extended to ALL Targs.

When I said he advocated killing babies I knew that it was Tywin that actually ordered that killing. So what did Robert - the good guy who doesn't like killing kids - do to punish Tywin? He married Tywin's daughter making her arguably the 2nd most powerful person in the Kingdom. Then he took out an excessive amount of loans from House Lannister which arguably made them the most powerful House in the Kingdom.

So he wasn't really all that broken up about the dead children. It doesn't really matter that he couldn't look at their bodies. That's just his way of avoiding having to feel any guilt for trying to wipe everyone with a certain last name. Robert really was a terrible person.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I believe you're correct.....but Robert often talked out of both sides of his mouth.

He really was a terrible person.

Robert really was a terrible person.

I third that statement.

 

[Rufio]

This is exactly what I was thinking. I don't believe Robert started hating Targs until Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna and from then on his rage extended to ALL Targs.

When I said he advocated killing babies I knew that it was Tywin that actually ordered that killing. So what did Robert - the good guy who doesn't like killing kids - do to punish Tywin? He married Tywin's daughter making her arguably the 2nd most powerful person in the Kingdom. Then he took out an excessive amount of loans from House Lannister which arguably made them the most powerful House in the Kingdom.

So he wasn't really all that broken up about the dead children. It doesn't really matter that he couldn't look at their bodies. That's just his way of avoiding having to feel any guilt for trying to wipe everyone with a certain last name. Robert really was a terrible person.

I agree he may not have been crying himself to sleep over the murders but he was glad not to have had to do it himself. I'm not making him out to be a good guy, he was awful in almost every way, but I don't think a thirst for child's blood was one of them. He did hate all Targs, seemingly, but Rhaegar above all others. His grandmother was Targaryen, and supposedly the founder of the Baratheon house, I forget his name, was the ******* brother of Aegon the Conquerer.

 

[viZion]

Right, and getting back to the original point: Jon was as good as dead if Robert found out he's Rhaegar's son. Now that I think about it, it doesn't even matter if Robert really would have killed Jon. What does matter is that it was Lyanna's perception that Robert would have Jon killed and that's why she told Ned to hide Jon's identity. And, again, this would hold true if Rhaegar was the father or if Aerys was the father but the entire theory is more fun if it's Rhaegar (see my post on the last page for why).

 

[Gry Wnd]

Anyone else find it hard to believe that GRRM told the answer to this question to an actor in the show??

 

[Boaz]

I find it hard to believe.

 

[Runic]

Anyone else find it hard to believe that GRRM told the answer to this question to an actor in the show??

Not really J.R.R. Tolk...I mean J.K. Rowling told Alan Rickman about his whole plot arc from the first film, and before she had written the rest of the Harry Potter books. This gave him insider knowledge that the directors didn't have and gave him an acting advantage.

There are many cases where, if a writer had been able to give direct input to an actor, the film would've been a lot better (or if producers had actually read the original) the Clive Cussler novels Raise The Titanic and Sahara made poor films bearing little or no resemblance to the original story.

With G.R.R.M, we have him directly involved, and that is why its a good series.

Getting back to topic, or in this case, The Luke Skywalker moment, what if Mance is his dad? There is nothing to say that Mance isn't a Targ, and it would explain why Mance was at Winterfell in cognito for the Robert Feast.
Also, as said before the Skywalker moment needs a personal reveal to be truly effective. Mind you I guess an old letter would serve just as well, which means that all bets are still on the table, I could even be his dad.....