Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Getting back to topic, or in this case, The Luke Skywalker moment, what if Mance is his dad? There is nothing to say that Mance isn't a Targ, and it would explain why Mance was at Winterfell in cognito for the Robert Feast.

Mance was a wildling baby that the nights watch raised to be a Black Brother. so probably not a Targ, but this doesn't mean he isn't Jon's dad... I'm just not sure how it could all fit together. Mance sneaks into winterfell, seduces Lyanna. Lyanna then goes south and gets captured/imprisoned/seduced by Rhaegar or raped by Aerys, then Robert starts the war to get her back and the whole business takes less than 9 months?

 

[Runic]

I thought Mance was an crow who defected to the wildlings when the Night's Watch made him give up his cloak patched with red ribbon that a wilding woman had made for him?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

That is true as well. He was a wildling baby that they raised to be a "Crow" but he defected when he couldn't keep his red patched cloak (a very romantic story by the way) A cloak I believe he continued to wear as King beyond the wall, the Real "king in the North".

 

[Runic]

Thank you, I can remember the story of the cloak, and somewhat of the conversation he has with Jon, and there being some reason for him sneaking into Winterfell but couldn't remember him being a wildling babe. It obviously didn't strike me as important at the time!! Anyway my mention of Mance being his dad, I now put in the possibles due to age, but remove the Targ connection, but if Jon is riding south to Winterfell to rescue people, it would be a good Skywalker reveal. Hold on....what if his dad is Stannis and Bolton knows something....When Mel looks for Stannis all she sees is Jon....

 

[Ghosty]

A wise old man, Aemon, once said:

"Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born."

Jon’s decision to change plans and go after Bolton – was a decision made after thoughts of Robb, Rickon, Bran, Sansa and Arya.

The decision was made by Jon the Boy not Jon the Man. Jon, up to this point, had failed to kill the boy. The death of Jon the Boy was necessary for the ‘man to be born.’

 

[Lofwyr]

A wise old man, Aemon, once said:

"Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born."

Jon’s decision to change plans and go after Bolton – was a decision made after thoughts of Robb, Rickon, Bran, Sansa and Arya.

The decision was made by Jon the Boy not Jon the Man. Jon, up to this point, had failed to kill the boy. The death of Jon the Boy was necessary for the ‘man to be born.’

So true. And an excellent first post. This is one of the more crucial pieces of foreshadowing to my mind. It's also the reason why I didn't find any of Jon's actions to be out of character in his last chapter. His entire story for ADwD detailed his internal struggle between doing his duty and appeasing his heart and he had gone against his heart for the entire novel. The letter was just the last straw that forced him to follow his heart.**

Anyway, I've read the thoughts and theories in this thread thus-far and find them all interesting. But for the most part they also seem too complicated. It seems that the simplest way for Jon to return was revealed in Mel's visions and the Varamyr prologue.

One of Mel's visions shows Jon as a man, then a wolf, then a man. Combined with the prologue we can presume this means Jon goes from being himself, to being Ghost and back to being himself. The other vision of hers regarding Jon tends to lend evidence to the idea that he is AA reborn.

I understand the fervent desires for Jon not to get "reborn" through resurrection by Mel. But why would that be necessary and, more to the point, would it even work? If Jon flees to Ghost to begin his second life his 'essence' would be in Ghost...so if/when Mel gives him the kiss to being him back to life what happens? In a way there would be no 'essence' for her to retrieve and put back in the corpse. She might simply make Jon's dead body become living and comatose. It might not work at all.

So why couldn't Jon just go into Ghost and then jump back to his body at some point? Whether he gets healed by Mel or resurrected his personality will likely remain in Ghost until he jumps back into his body relatively unchanged.

**I might argue that Jon choosing to trust his personal values instead of a rigid oath of duty is his first act as a man, leading to the necessary "death" of the boy. I don't buy the idea that being "the man" means becoming the perfect nights watchman.

 

[juleska]

Well said Lofwyr.....I will agree that most of the theories seem really complicated and maybe needlessly so, but I'll just put on the table that I will favor any theory that leaves me with Jon still being alive and ready to kick some Bolton @ss. And Needle's theory does work with the evidence we're provided. It may be that we don't need that complex a solution, but I'll hang on to that thread of hope no matter what it's made of!

 

[viZion]

The simplest solution is still that Jon simply survives his wounds without having to be resurrected or warg into anything or anyone .

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I agree halfheartedly with Vizion. I do think that the simplest and IMO most like solution is that jon will simply heal from his wounds, and as I stated earlier in this thread (i think) it probably won't be Mel that tends to his wounds but rather Val will be the one to help him, much as a wildling woman once helped Mance Rayder.

Where I disagree with Vizion is that i think Jon will warg into Ghost, not out of necessity, but simply because as his body is being badly wounded, his mid will try to escape and go into Ghost in a kind of defence manouver that Jon probably wont even consiously do. But then as Ghost, he can kick some serious ass and perhaps defend his real body. We know that when a Stark takes over his direwolf, he is capable of thinking more clearly than the wolf and escape from situations (as evidenced when Bran, as Summer, ran up the tree to jump over the wall surrounding the godswood and thus escape)

Something Lofwyr said did trigger an idea to me though. But this is regarding Coldhands. If you, like I, believe that Coldhands is Benjen Stark, then you might find this interesting. It has been speculated that perhaps Benjen had some sort of ability to Warg, or that many starks did, but none of them really realised their gift or that it wasn't that strong. My theory, is that Benjen stark was attacked and killed by wights or white walkers, but as he was dying, he did what Varymyr did, and what I suspect Jon will do (see above) He warged into a nearby animal (probably a bird). But then after the white walkers turned his corpse into a Wight, he warged back. That would explain why, despite being dead, he still has controll of his body, but that all the normal rules of Wights holds true to him, in that he can't pass the wall or enter the cave of the 3 eyed crow.

Just a thought.

 

[viZion]

Where I disagree with Vizion is that i think Jon will warg into Ghost, not out of necessity, but simply because as his body is being badly wounded, his mid will try to escape and go into Ghost in a kind of defence manouver that Jon probably wont even consiously do. But then as Ghost, he can kick some serious ass and perhaps defend his real body. We know that when a Stark takes over his direwolf, he is capable of thinking more clearly than the wolf and escape from situations (as evidenced when Bran, as Summer, ran up the tree to jump over the wall surrounding the godswood and thus escape)

Ok, THIS I can buy into. If he wargs into Ghost involuntarily after being knocked unconscious from his wounds that would be totally fine. He's warged into Ghost involuntarily before while he was sleeping. Arya has done it, too. I think Bran did it as well before he learned to control his power. Yeah, this makes far more sense than other theories. It's simple and checks off all the requirements needed for him to be "reborn".

 

[Keebs411]

My theory, is that Benjen stark was attacked and killed by wights or white walkers, but as he was dying, he did what Varymyr did, and what I suspect Jon will do (see above) He warged into a nearby animal (probably a bird). But then after the white walkers turned his corpse into a Wight, he warged back. That would explain why, despite being dead, he still has controll of his body, but that all the normal rules of Wights holds true to him, in that he can't pass the wall or enter the cave of the 3 eyed crow.

Just a thought.

It would deff help explain how he is the only Wight who is able to maintain so much of his fomrer self. How ever i thought Varymr s chapter explained that once you warg out into an animal and your human body is dead there is no going back?..... then again, a Wight is a reserected body, so maybe that is the only circumstance one could warg back?.. deff somthing to think about!

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

That's what I am thinking Keebs. Maybe if Varymyr's corpse was resurrected then he could have gone back. The prologue certainly gives us alot of insight into the abilities of a Warg.

Another possibility is that the 3 eyed crow, who clearly has something to do with Coldhands, helped him out with it. Like went into his head and told him that this was possible? 3 eyed Crows abilities have not been fully explored, but from the Varamyr chapter we learned that it is possible for a Warg to go in and force the spirit out of a body, which Varamyr did to Haggon after he had died. Haggon tried to have his second life in his wolf, but Varamyr forced him out. Maybe 3 eyed crow knew Benjen would be usefull and therefore forced his spirit out of his body before he died so as to preserve Benjen.

 

[jon snow of the wall]

id say he dosnt die as i dont think coldhands is benjen stark, neds brother as bran ould have recognised him but at no time does he. also i think jon dosnt die just becomes mortally injured and it will be up to him to fight it and survive as come on all mel has said is he has to find faith and i think that is what will save him over any of the other theories but GRRM will make it a good outcome and will lead to something as if youve read the sample given in the second part of the aDoD then you know stanis is ready for bolton and has found out about the Karstark betrayal and now has theon who was present during most of the planning meatings.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

also i think jon dosnt die just becomes mortally injured and it will be up to him to fight it and survive as come on all mel has said is he has to find faith and i think that is what will save him over any of the other theories but GRRM will make it a good outcome and will lead to something as if youve read the sample given in the second part of the aDoD then you know stanis is ready for bolton and has found out about the Karstark betrayal and now has theon who was present during most of the planning meatings.

Welcome to the Forums if nobody else welcomed you

possibly the longest sentance I have ever read, but I get what you mean.

I disagree with you about Coldhands being Benjen (as I think he is). The fact that Bran didn't recognize him doesn't discount this theory. Coldhands always has his face covered and if he is dead (which he is) bran might not be able to get beyond that fact. People look different when they are dead. The colour drains from them and they seem more stonefaced. Granted my experience with dead people is limited to funerals, I think the same would apply here. Bran Might have recognized his uncle if his uncle were alive, but I think Coldhands is so far from the way Benjen was when he was alive that he is unrecognizable to Bran.

Perhaps a more Apt description would be to say that Coldhands isn't Benjen, but he WAS. Much like Ser Robert strong isn't the mountain, but he was.

 

[Keebs411]

Welcome to the Forums if nobody else welcomed you

possibly the longest sentance I have ever read, but I get what you mean.

I disagree with you about Coldhands being Benjen (as I think he is). The fact that Bran didn't recognize him doesn't discount this theory. Coldhands always has his face covered and if he is dead (which he is) bran might not be able to get beyond that fact. People look different when they are dead. The colour drains from them and they seem more stonefaced. Granted my experience with dead people is limited to funerals, I think the same would apply here. Bran Might have recognized his uncle if his uncle were alive, but I think Coldhands is so far from the way Benjen was when he was alive that he is unrecognizable to Bran.

Perhaps a more Apt description would be to say that Coldhands isn't Benjen, but he WAS. Much like Ser Robert strong isn't the mountain, but he was.

I agree with the fact that the undead do not always look like their former selves thus being unreconizable. if memeory serves this was the same when brienne bumped back into the undead Cat, she looked nothing like her former self either and briene did not reconize her right away

 

[All Men Must Die]

I don't see the point of Jon being stabbed/kill by his brothers. I know the Night Watch hate the wildings and Jon made all those deals with them. My point is wasn't Jon just giving a big speech to the wildings about the mission changes. From all accounts there are less than what 500 men guarding the wall. And thousands of wildings already south of the wall. By all account Jon has treated them fair, feed them and told them Mance is not dead.

I think Jon going recover his injuries and find that he is the last Men of the Nights Watch. The wilding should fight to save and protect Jon. And since there's more wildings they just might kill everyone but Jon.

I all was thought Jon was going to leave the Night Watch when he learn about his real parents (R+L=J). And I figured the Others were going to find the Real Horn and blow it to bring the Wall down. Since Jon found out Mance found a Fake horn. The whole purpose was get on the other side of the Wall away from the Others.But like I said I think Men of Night are all going to die since the attack Jon.

 

[viZion]

I actually hadn't considered that the Night's Watch attacking Jon might start a war on the Wall between the Night's Watch and the Wildlings. Were the Wildlings allowed to keep their weapons? Even if they weren't, I think you're right in saying that their numbers would overwhelm the Night's Watch. This makes for some very interesting possibilities.

 

[Tywin]

And I figured the Others were going to find the Real Horn and blow it to bring the Wall down. Since Jon found out Mance found a Fake horn.

You know, we all figure that was a fake horn, but perhaps the "Bringing down the wall" prophecy is a little more metaphorical than we're giving it credit for. Maybe the prophecy doesn't mean that the actual physical wall comes crashing down, but that it starts a chain of events that leads to the end of the Night's Watch.

 

[All Men Must Die]

What I was wondering was, did GRRM messed up in how he wanted Jon to be killed off? If I remember right ( I don't have my books, lent them to a friend to read the series ) the Queen's men were attacking the giant and Jon was trying to stop them before a war started. Then gets attack by his men before he has a chance to pull out his sword.

By attacking Jon in the open is just not smart. The Wildling and the Queen's men on orders from Mel should attack NW.

If you were a men of NW and you figured your lord commander is a turncloak/traitor to NW. Wouldn't it make more sense to try to kill Jon in his sleep and then blame the Wildlings. Not try to kill him where everyone is at including the Wildlings.

If the Wildlings don't try to save Jon and protect him idk what to think. I don't buy the whole Jon while have to Warg into Ghost and Mel save him with a sacrifice or something along those lines.

I mean remember the POV where people of NW were trying to kill the old bear. It was just a handful of people. But this looks like the NW wants Jon to die since he has done to many things that don't represent the NW. Look like Jon choosing to go fight Boltons and get involve was their last straw.

 

[Ursa major]

Given the time and care that GRRM puts into his books, I can't see how he has messed up the portrayal of that scene. (Some characters may have messed up, but that's a different story.)