Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

Re: Jon Snow

SPOILERS for A Dance with Dragons

It's been quite a while since I've visited these forums, for those of you who recognize the name. I just finished ADWD five minutes ago and decided to come on here to see where you all stood on theories and opinions. I had to come to this thread first because it is titled 'Jon Snow'.

First of all, I found reading Jon's death more painful than reading the Red Wedding and Ned's execution combined. Perhaps because Jon was my last redoubt, my bastion of northern honour and duty after Ned and Robb were taken. The loss of Jon just reminds me of how I lost them too. What I found heartbreaking was that it happened very suddenly and there were too few lines to describe what was happening. To me, his death and the sense of foreboding deserved just as many pages as Robb and Catelyn's and the fact that it didn't get them makes me think that GRRM didn't care about Jon's death, which I'm sure is not the case. It left me feeling so helpless and I still feel this way because I haven't had more than an hour to process it.

To me the series has always been about Jon and Dany. Theirs is the song of ice and fire. The Wall and the East have always been my favourite locations and I feel the Wall and Jon's struggle in particular are so important to the series that he cannot be dead for good. The wounds certainly seem mortal, in what I suppose is reminiscent of the murder of Julius Caesar, but I see I'm not the only one here who hopes for some Melisandre resurrection action. Though I hope if it happens then it goes the way of Beric Dondarrion where he seems more or less unchanged mentally, except perhaps a bit more morose and mature having died, and not the way of Catelyn...

But if Jon IS dead for good then I think GRRM has made his first actual and serious blunder. One that will put a blight upon the series forever in my eyes unless he really manages to pull a rabbit out of the hat on this one (and after having read ADWD I can say that there were remarkably fewer of these moments in this book than I was expecting). I'm sure I don't need to tell you why I think this but in short I suppose it's because Jon is not like the other character's that have died. His story isn't part of the game of thrones where people live and die within Machiavellian schemes. His story is one of the only supernatural fantasy elements in the entire series and without him we no longer have a permanent POV on the Wall from someone we have come to trust throughout the series. He is a VERY important character, not just in the story but in its telling.

He was the hero. The fish-out-of-water. The boy of destiny. His story was the twinkling spark of magic in an otherwise brutally realistic tale. I have accepted every other important character death in this book as necessary to the plot and uniquely interesting in their own way but here I must protest. If he is gone for good then the story will have lost a chunk of its foundations and a lot of its magic.

RIP Lord Snow... but I shall not be burying you yet.
 
Re: Jon Snow

Ghost of Harrenhal said:
He was the hero. The fish-out-of-water. The boy of destiny.
Click to expand...
And if Jon is dead (and for good), which I don't currently believe, perhaps the above is what sealed his fate: the archetypal - or clichéd - nature of his existence.



(Which doesn't bode well for Dany....)
 
Re: Jon Snow

I said:
I think you're the first person who has posted who thinks Jon is actually dead. :)
Click to expand...

Frankly, I don't know what to think. I don't want him to be dead and the fact that his death was not confirmed anywhere later in the book like Ned's, Robb's or Catelyn's was means there is a chance he will return. I'm not going to cling to any particular theory because it will give me too much hope but my fingers are certainly crossed that he will pull through somehow!
 
Re: Jon Snow

I didn't feel like re-reading another discussion or Jon's parentage, etc, as I'm only interested in whether or not he's gone from the series. Forgive me if i repeat anything that's already been said.

Perhaps the best argument for Jon NOT being dead is it's too late in the series to kill off such a pivotal character, at least, too late to completely eliminate him in any form. If Jon is really dead it will leave a gaping hole in the story. I don't know if Stannis is dead or not. I suspect he is, but I also suspect that the letter Jon got was a fake. One thing we know for sure, The others will be in the next book and there will be big trouble at the Wall. Either Jon or Stannis or both will need to be around or the Wall will fall.

Then there is Thoros of Myr, Melisandre, and the absolutely proven ability of Red Priests to resurrect. IT IS KNOWN. If Mel WANTS Jon to be alive he will be. It would also be a very convenient way of "breaking" his oath to the Wall, as he was "re-born".

Another possibility (which was mentioned by someone in another thread) is Jon doing what Varamyr Sixskins did in the prologue. It actually would make the prologue make a lot more sense in the context of the book.

Then there's Bran, with powers that we might not even be able to imagine, the unification of the wolves, which HAS to happen.

Lastly, was know Jon was stabbed, the last time being in the middle of his back. We weren't told he was dead. While GRRM isn't necessarily using misdirection, it's certainly way too obvious and lacks the slightest bit of subtlety. Part of what makes this so clever is that we know that GRRM DID kill off Cat, Ned and Rob. Jon COULD be dead. i just don't believe it's true
 
Re: Jon Snow

I do not believe he is dead for all the reasons Imp has already stated. I do wonder how GRRM is gonna pull this off however.

Mel can of course bring him back and in doing so remove his vows. I for 1 though don't much like the idea of Un-Jon!

The Sixskins prologue proves he could indeed live on that way, but can't see that alone as an option because he would not take over another person and Ghost can't command men or ride a dragon!

Stabbing him mid back gives us another option. Crippled not dead. Not best choice for me but Bran is doing pretty good!
 
Re: Jon Snow

Needle said:
The Sixskins prologue proves he could indeed live on that way, but can't see that alone as an option because he would not take over another person and Ghost can't command men or ride a dragon!
Click to expand...

You have Stannis Baratheon? We have a direwolf on top of a dragon as our commander!

Direwolf dragon cavalry. Hilarious.
 
Re: Jon Snow

Ghost would be the scout, Jon's eyes and ears on the ground. Jon on the white dragon would be aerial support. Jon as the warg would be air traffic control?:)
 
Re: Jon Snow

Jon's not dead, I'm 100% certain of this. (Or, at least, even if he's dead, he's coming back as UnJon).

Have a look at this interview with GRRM (NB ADWD spoilers):

http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g/

I've copied the relevant part below:
ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: So why did you kill Jon Snow?
GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?

Well, I guess. Yes. That’s how I took it. The way it was written, it sounded like he was mortally wounded — and, you know, it’s you!
Well. I’m not going to address whether he’s dead or not. But as to why — didn’t you think the text established why they would want to assassinate him?

The narrative made perfect sense. Looking back through the books, all the decisions Jon’s made, and all the foreshadowing that was there, yes, you played fair. At the same time, it was devastating and I suspect fans will howl, the most since–
The most since the Red Wedding, I suspect.

How long have you intended for that incident to happen?
For many years. Some of the stuff about Melisandre warning Jon of “daggers in the dark” was written 10 years ago.
​
It's that "Oh, you think he’s dead, do you?" that pretty much nails it for me.
 
Re: Jon Snow

He can live in Ghost until Mel gets him back up and running. The other Uns didn't have that going for them. So his resurection could be more substantial.

Or she pulls off the Victarion healing method.

Or he's dead.

I've read the interviews too. It's weird that he hints like this. He mentions feeling bad about all the cliffhangers, maybe that's why the hinting.. The first three books had satisfactory endings for every character, last two, not so much..
 
Re: Jon Snow

Not finished with my re-read and haven't really seen it mentioned or explained in the threads, but what was the significance of the crow screaming "Jon Snow?" Jon also thought it was odd that he said his whole name. I instantly thought that someone has warged into the crow. Any ideas?
 
Re: Jon Snow

I'd clearly made the mistake of thinking that Jon and Dany, plus maybe Tyrion, are the only "untouchables" in this series (at least for this book).

A lot of comments seem to think Jon's actions were blatantly leading to his demise, but let's face it, we could say that about ANY of the characters. Granted, as soon as Jon declared taking Winterfell I should've thought of Robb and known better! It took me by surprise though, and had me doing a double-take, just like the Red Wedding, even though not on the same scale. After I re-read words to the effect of "he twisted away from the blade" I thought, "no no, he's all right. Heh, that tricksy Mr. Martin is just giving us a scare." Then I read the next few sentences...

For those arguing that Jon may not be dead, I think that's seriously wishing thinking. Stabbed multiple times and I get the impression that his throat was cut far worse than he realised, hence his fingers not quite able to grasp Longclaw. Jon is surely dead. A red resurrection seems just as sure (except that warging offers an alternative).

My only question is why wait until all the wildlings were through the Wall before turning on Jon? While the Hardhome mission was far from helping, letting the wildlings through must've been the issue that turned popular opinion against him.

xLordsnowx - maybe it was just a matter of dark wings, dark words, delivered personally?
 
Re: Jon Snow

xLORDSNOWx said:
Not finished with my re-read and haven't really seen it mentioned or explained in the threads, but what was the significance of the crow screaming "Jon Snow?" Jon also thought it was odd that he said his whole name. I instantly thought that someone has warged into the crow. Any ideas?
Click to expand...
I think the significance was in the entire phrase, King, Snow, Jon Snow!
Combined with the fact that the bird never put two words together before giving the whole phrase more meaning.
 
Re: Jon Snow

No One said:
I'd clearly made the mistake of thinking that Jon and Dany, plus maybe Tyrion, are the only "untouchables" in this series (at least for this book).

A lot of comments seem to think Jon's actions were blatantly leading to his demise, but let's face it, we could say that about ANY of the characters. Granted, as soon as Jon declared taking Winterfell I should've thought of Robb and known better! It took me by surprise though, and had me doing a double-take, just like the Red Wedding, even though not on the same scale. After I re-read words to the effect of "he twisted away from the blade" I thought, "no no, he's all right. Heh, that tricksy Mr. Martin is just giving us a scare." Then I read the next few sentences...

For those arguing that Jon may not be dead, I think that's seriously wishing thinking. Stabbed multiple times and I get the impression that his throat was cut far worse than he realised, hence his fingers not quite able to grasp Longclaw. Jon is surely dead. A red resurrection seems just as sure (except that warging offers an alternative).

My only question is why wait until all the wildlings were through the Wall before turning on Jon? While the Hardhome mission was far from helping, letting the wildlings through must've been the issue that turned popular opinion against him.

xLordsnowx- maybe it was just a matter of dark wings, dark words, delivered personally?
Click to expand...


I don't think it did turn popular opinion against him. I'm sure a lot of the brothers weren't happy with him, or at least felt uncomfortable with letting in the very people they'd fought for years to keep at bay. But, as with the difference of opinion about whether or not to range, I'm sure the majority of the rangers saw the necessity in what Jon was doing. It was, ironically, the stewards and the builders who seemed to be most prejudiced against the wildlings and who stabbed Jon in the back. Two groups of people got up and left the hall after Jon's speech - Bowen Marsh and his cronies, and othell yarwick and his. No mention of ulmer of the the kingswood or any of his ilk leaving, and until it's stated explicitly who attacked him in TWOW I’m going to assume that this attack was confined to a very small group of disaffected cooks and handymen and will not be looked upon favourably by the rest of the watch.
 
Re: Jon Snow

I've assumed that getting the Wildings through the Wall before they turned into wights was seen as a benefit. A Wilding might kill you; a wight definitely would.
 
Re: Jon Snow

Ursa major said:
I've assumed that getting the Wildings through the Wall before they turned into wights was seen as a benefit. A Wilding might kill you; a wight definitely would.
Click to expand...
Plus even Bowen agreed with Jon that the wildlings would stand with the watch against the others, he thought they would fight against them if it were other wildlings attacking.
 
Re: Jon Snow

No One said:
xLordsnowx - maybe it was just a matter of dark wings, dark words, delivered personally?
Click to expand...

Wow! That is deep. I didn't think of it like that.

@ Needle

Yes, that's my point. the crow never put two words together so i automatically assumed that someone is inside the crow. Maybe trying to communicate with him or warn him about an impending danger as "No One" eerily suggested.
 
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