Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Brian G Turner]

Re: Jon Snow

Yes, that's my point. the crow never put two words together so i automatically assumed that someone is inside the crow. Maybe trying to communicate with him or warn him about an impending danger as "No One" eerily suggested.

Similar with Theon in Winterfell - seemed like another Bran moment.

 

[Gry Wnd]

Re: Jon Snow

I'd clearly made the mistake of thinking that Jon and Dany, plus maybe Tyrion, are the only "untouchables" in this series (at least for this book).

A lot of comments seem to think Jon's actions were blatantly leading to his demise, but let's face it, we could say that about ANY of the characters. Granted, as soon as Jon declared taking Winterfell I should've thought of Robb and known better! It took me by surprise though, and had me doing a double-take, just like the Red Wedding, even though not on the same scale. After I re-read words to the effect of "he twisted away from the blade" I thought, "no no, he's all right. Heh, that tricksy Mr. Martin is just giving us a scare." Then I read the next few sentences...

For those arguing that Jon may not be dead, I think that's seriously wishing thinking. Stabbed multiple times and I get the impression that his throat was cut far worse than he realised, hence his fingers not quite able to grasp Longclaw. Jon is surely dead. A red resurrection seems just as sure (except that warging offers an alternative).

My only question is why wait until all the wildlings were through the Wall before turning on Jon? While the Hardhome mission was far from helping, letting the wildlings through must've been the issue that turned popular opinion against him.

That's a good question

I agree I was thinking the whole time that Marsh wouldn't turn on him after they were past. Tormund is going to go crazy. What's to stop them from taking over the wall? It doesn't make sense. Marsh specifically mentions that they will be extremely out numbered, and Jon is the only one with a relationship with Tormund. Why cause a fight after? Wasn't there time before?

And that "for the wall" quote is the reason that letting them through WAS the final reason for the mutiny. If he agreed it wouldn't of happened.

 

[Culhwch]

Re: Jon Snow

Yeah, I'd like to know how Tormund will take it. It was only wildlings left in that hall - perhaps other conspirators were dispatched to bar the doors and set it alight? With all the leaders gone, perhaps they hoped the rest of the wildlings would be easy to intimidate...

 

[viZion]

Re: Jon Snow

I hope that Jon is not resurrected. It's fine if the stabs weren't fatal to begin with but if he dies and comes back as "unJon", I think the series will have officially jumped the shark. Too much of this resurrection stuff going on. It's really a poor way to handle things. It's the main reason I stopped reading Erikson's ridiculous series. I miss the feeling in the first three books that anyone could die, even your favorite character.

Vote "No" on Resurrection.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

I hope that Jon is not resurrected. It's fine if the stabs weren't fatal to begin with but if he dies and comes back as "unIon", I think the series will have officially jumped the shark. Too much of this resurrection stuff going on. It's really a poor way to handle things. It's the main reason I stopped reading Erikson's ridiculous series. I miss the feeling in the first three books that anyone could die, even your favorite character.

Vote "No" on Resurrection.

I'll respectfully disagree.

GRRM has made very judicious use of bringing people back from the dead or nearly dead. No one, with the exception of Beric Dondarrion actually came back to life even remotely resembling his or her former self.

Khal Drogo was as good as dead when he was "resurrected"

The Un-Cat is clearly a mess in every imaginable way.

Bran was never dead, but came back to consciousness as a cripple

I can't think of anyone else off the top of my head that fits into the category.

I don't think it would be at all gimmicky if Melisandre was to bring Jon back. There's precedencene for it, with that kind of magic is what Red Priests do. it's part of that world. It's not overused IMO and would be fine in this situation.

 

[Culhwch]

Re: Jon Snow

I kind of agree with viZion. With Beric, it was, 'Wow, cool!'. With Catelyn it was, 'Oh, okay then.' With Jon, I feel like it would be, 'Really? Again?' If he survives his wounds, fair enough (though still slightly gimmicky - kind of like one of those old-fashioned serials that always ended with the hero in mortal danger: 'WILL JON SNOW DIE? WILL BOWEN MARSH BECOME LORD COMMANDER? TUNE IN NEXT WEEK TO FIND OUT!!!!'). If he dies, well then there's precedence for that, too. If he is ressurected, in my opinion it's kind of pushing it...

 

[Robin Goodfellow]

Re: Jon Snow

In all likely hood he'll warg into Ghost. His body will be preserved and healed by Mel, and then he'll warg back.

Mel even hints this in her POV, "Now a man, now a wolf, now a man again," or something like that.

 

[viZion]

Re: Jon Snow

I'm also being a bit liberal with my definition of "resurrection" although I know that wasn't obvious from my post. I'm also including Gregor and Aegon as resurrections. Sure, neither one ever really died but it still adds on to the pile of people presumed dead. Hell, throw Strong Belwas in there, too! I just get the feeling that GRRM is getting a bit of a soft spot for his favorite characters.

I'd accept Melisandre healing Jon like Moqorro (sp?) healed Victarion but a full-on resurrection would still annoy me. Especially since Mel has never really given any hint that she's capable of resurrection (or healing). Thoros got the gift out of nowhere and maybe Moqorro just studied healing arts the way Mel studies reading flames. I.e. maybe not all servants of R'hllor have the same powers.

 

[Ursa major]

Re: Jon Snow

If one is to include anyone and everyone that survived a severe injury (or poisoning), or who was not harmed in any way (but was thought to have been), one is almost looking to be disappointed by the survival of various characters, even where no magic is involved. As far as I can tell, only two characters** have actually been brought back after truly dying, i.e. Dondarrion (multiple times, though most of them were off-stage) and Catelyn. Drogo wasn't dead, so couldn't have been resurrected; Aegon was protected in the same way as Bran and Rickon***. Gregor has, unwillingly, donated his body to medical science. (What Qyburn seems to have done is probably akin to Dr Frankenstein's procedure***. I don't recall individual resurrection being a big part of Mary Shelley's work.)

Varymyr's case is different and may be signposting Jon's fate (though knowing how tricksy GRRM can be, I wouldn't bank on it).




** - Patchface may be third example, but no-one's really dwelt on him so far. (That may change.) Damphair, on the other hand, seems to have survived in the usual way, by not actually dying in the first place. (The wights are something else entirely; I almost forgot to mention them as no-one seems to complain about their after-life experiences.)

*** - In a world where power (or, at least, threats to it) derive from blood, it isn't at all surprising that attempts are going to be made to conceal the survival of heirs to power. So far we've had three - Bran, Rickon and Aegon - from two wars and a major rebellion spread over 15+ years. Only one, that of Aegon, seems to be organised in any way. (Bran and Rickon were left to their own devices.) That doesn't sound particularly excessive to me.

**** - It may, though, be an example of warging.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

I'm also being a bit liberal with my definition of "resurrection" although I know that wasn't obvious from my post. I'm also including Gregor and Aegon as resurrections. Sure, neither one ever really died but it still adds on to the pile of people presumed dead. Hell, throw Strong Belwas in there, too! I just get the feeling that GRRM is getting a bit of a soft spot for his favorite characters.

I'd accept Melisandre healing Jon like Socorro (sp?) healed Victarion but a full-on resurrection would still annoy me. Especially since Mel has never really given any hint that she's capable of resurrection (or healing). Thoros got the gift out of nowhere and maybe Tomorrow just studied healing arts the way Mel studies reading flames. I.e. maybe not all servants of R'hllor have the same powers.

I guess I'm missing the reason you have for a device- resurrection- which has been used once before by a Red Priest (twice if you count Cat), being used again three books after the last time it was used. I have MUCH more of a problem with the "oh, by the way, Aegon is really alive" than I do with this. Magic is part of fantasy, and all told GRRM has used magic fairly sparingly. Jon being brought back (by Melisandre) doesn't even come close to falling into the same category as some of the other things you mentioned..

I don't think it will be nearly as simple as that by the way. The prologue has much greater meaning in the context of Jon's predicament.

 

[Needle]

Re: Jon Snow

In all likely hood he'll warg into Ghost. His body will be preserved and healed by Mel, and then he'll warg back.

Mel even hints this in her POV, "Now a man, now a wolf, now a man again," or something like that.

I don't think it will be nearly as simple as that by the way. The prologue has much greater meaning in the context of Jon's predicament.

I agree with Robin and Imp, he will most likely resurrected but his spirit, mind, soul will reside in Ghost in the mean time so hopefully he will not be changed as Cat and even to some extent Beric was by being brought back. The quote Robin gives us kinda says it right out. I hope this is the case anyway, I would be very displeased with Un-Jon!!

I don't feel it would be an overuse, as others have said it has really only been done twice (excepting the Others) and Beric's were only a small part of the story told second hand.

 

[Gry Wnd]

Re: Jon Snow

I'm also being a bit liberal with my definition of "resurrection" although I know that wasn't obvious from my post. I'm also including Gregor and Aegon as resurrections. Sure, neither one ever really died but it still adds on to the pile of people presumed dead. Hell, throw Strong Belwas in there, too! I just get the feeling that GRRM is getting a bit of a soft spot for his favorite characters.

I'd accept Melisandre healing Jon like Moqorro (sp?) healed Victarion but a full-on resurrection would still annoy me. Especially since Mel has never really given any hint that she's capable of resurrection (or healing). Thoros got the gift out of nowhere and maybe Moqorro just studied healing arts the way Mel studies reading flames. I.e. maybe not all servants of R'hllor have the same powers.

Add Davos, Brianne, and Loras, maybe even Dany depending how liberal you are being with "resurrection"

Only one I wanted to see come back was POD, and now Jon.

I get where you are coming from, let's hope he's setting up TWOW to be a serious blood bath like nothing we've seen before (and they stay dead).

 

[viZion]

Re: Jon Snow

Ok, but Melisandre still hasn't shown an aptitude for resurrecting people. I just think it would be too easy. Seriously, I don't want yet another undead character (I'm still counting Gregor as undead) wandering around just because GRRM or his fans like him. Keep in mind, that Varamyr and other skinchangers didn't need a Red Priest to keep their spirits alive. Can Jon warg into another person nearby? Is there anyone hanging around that final scene simple-minded enough to make that happen?

There are ways to resolve this without resorting to borderline deus ex machina magic (Thoros appears at the Wall out of nowhere, anyone?), the simplest being that the stab wounds simply weren't fatal. I mean, after that 4th stab maybe Ghost appears and starts kicking butt to protect Jon. Maybe that giant sees what's happening and starts protecting Jon. Who knows? Just please no unJons .

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

Ok, but Melisandre still hasn't shown an aptitude for resurrecting people. I just think it would be too easy. Seriously, I don't want yet another undead character (I'm still counting Gregor as undead) wandering around just because GRRM or his fans like him. Keep in mind, that Varamyr and other skinchangers didn't need a Red Priest to keep their spirits alive. Can Jon warg into another person nearby? Is there anyone hanging around that final scene simple-minded enough to make that happen?

There are ways to resolve this without resorting to borderline deus ex machina magic (Thoros appears at the Wall out of nowhere, anyone?), the simplest being that the stab wounds simply weren't fatal. I mean, after that 4th stab maybe Ghost appears and starts kicking butt to protect Jon. Maybe that giant sees what's happening and starts protecting Jon. Who knows? Just please no unJons .

It wouldn't be a case of Deus Ex Machina. Again, this is an established ability, maybe not possessed by all Red Priests, but certainly by Thoros, who didn't seem to be the valedictorian of his class. It's not as if GRRM would be telling us that Prince Aegon was alive after leading us to believe he was dead. That was much more DEM in nature than resurrecting Jon would be.

Jon could have worged into the giant, or how about the dead guys frozen in the cell? They didn't serve much of a purpose, maybe this was what they were there for.

I think it would be "chessier' if the wounds WEREN't fatal.

 

[Culhwch]

Re: Jon Snow

Wun Wun crushes Bowen Marsh's head like a pomegranate - I'd like to see that! But I'd say with Jon out of the picture, the Queen's Men will fall upon the giant and kill him.

I'd forgotten about Ghost - he's locked up in the forge, isn't he? My, he is going to be mighty ticked off when the first black brothers stumble across him...

EDIT: I don't think a warg can warg into dead people. It just wargn't make sense...

 

[xLORDSNOWx]

Re: Jon Snow

Is there anyone hanging around that final scene simple-minded enough to make that happen?

There are ways to resolve this without resorting to borderline deus ex machina magic (Thoros appears at the Wall out of nowhere, anyone?), the simplest being that the stab wounds simply weren't fatal. I mean, after that 4th stab maybe Ghost appears and starts kicking butt to protect Jon. Maybe that giant sees what's happening and starts protecting Jon. Who knows? Just please no unJons .

Now if he wargs into the Giant as Bran wargs into Hodor, that would be epic!

I can see him looking first to ghost and finding the giant even more apealing at the present time.

 

[viZion]

Re: Jon Snow

It wouldn't be a case of Deus Ex Machina. Again, this is an established ability, maybe not possessed by all Red Priests, but certainly by Thoros, who didn't seem to be the valedictorian of his class. It's not as if GRRM would be telling us that Prince Aegon was alive after leading us to believe he was dead. That was much more DEM in nature than resurrecting Jon would be.

Established ability for one character and that's Thoros. I don't think it would be right for GRRM to suddenly give the ability to Mel when she's not even hinted at that possessing that ability. It would mean that every character with a Red Priest nearby (Victarion) is rendered practically invincible. What's to stop him from throwing in a few more Red Priests to make sure no one else important dies? I'd really just like to get back to the gritty, tense feeling of the first few books where people stayed dead. You could throw Catelyn back at me but I'll point out that she lost her POV when she was resurrected. You guys may get your unJon but the precedent then shifts to him losing his POV as well.

However, I don't see how Jon surviving the stabbings would be cheap. There have been tons of cliffhangers in this series where a character surely looks like he's kicked the bucket only to come up as alive with their next POV. Half of Tyrion's chapters seem to end with him in a "Will He Survive?" cliffhanger. Now that's a precedent. (For the record, I've never used the Table of Contents to see if a "cliffhanger" POV had another POV later in the book).

This may be beyond the scope of this thread but many people have doubted that baby Aegon was really dead. There were enough passages in the series that hinted that he may have survived that it wasn't a complete shock that he appeared in ADWD. Tower of the Hand has an entire FAQ about it here:

http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/baby_aegon.html

It's interesting that no one in that FAQ guessed Young Griff though. I'm pretty sure we knew about that character before ADWD was released but I could be wrong on that.

 

[Culhwch]

Re: Jon Snow

Throw in Arya as having a fairly significant 'Is she dead?' cliffhanger chapter (post-RW) as well.

However it works out, some people are going to like it, and some people aren't. That's the nature of art, after all.

 

[Trey Greyjoy]

Re: Jon Snow

I have to admit, my very first thought was "un-Jon" as well. Even if she doesnt use the breath of life, I think she'll be involved in his recovery. She knew it was coming, after all.

 

[The Imp]

Re: Jon Snow

As a general question for some of you, why does leaving a character in mortal peril and resurrecting have to be in the same conversation? GRRM has used "true" resurrection twice and only one of those was really successful, as Cat was in the water too long. It's not as if he's killed people off over and over again and then POOF, they're back. Leaving characters in peril at the end of chapters (Bran was the first) has been a device that GRRM has used a lot, and IMO it's part of what has created the wonderful tension that this series maintains. Whether Jon is dead, or not, or resurrected, or not, will not be an overuse of any device that GRRM has used, at least IMO>